David Thompson
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October 01, 2009

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carbon based lifeform

Hahahahahahahahahahahah... Stunning.

David

It is an… odd thing to say. For a self-described “multi-millionaire” with a suitably agreeable Upper West Side apartment valued at $1.27 million and a spare, and no less agreeable, lakeside house in upstate Michigan.

Karen M

From "Stupid White Men":

"I walk among them. I live on the island of Manhattan, a three-mile-wide strip of land that is luxury home and corporate suite to America's elite.... Those who run your life live in my neighborhood. I walk in the streets with them each day"

So the multi-millionaire socialist still isn't part of the "elite", eh? He just lives next door and hires the same limos.

Spiny Norman

This grotesque, condescending, lying ass truly exemplifies the term "hypocrite": with all the stories that have come out from his former employees about his shoddy treatment of actual working class people, there really is nothing redeeming about this man.

That he is continually feted by Democrat bigwigs says a lot about the Party, and none of it good.

mlrosty

"The system is not set up to help somebody from the working class make a movie like this and get the truth out there."

I didn't know 'the system' was supposed to 'help' Michael Moore make his films. Can I have a few quid to make one?

AntiCitizenOne

Do you think if a Cuban were to film the failures of Castro's Marxism they'd even be allowed to?

Socialism is a mental illness.

It's symptoms are Projection, Narcissism and Envy. MM exhibits all three.

TimT

Hypocrisy certainly seems to be an emergent theme these days:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/theyre_special/

TimT

And before I forget, this one too:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/theyre_calling_our_president_hitler/

I accidentally put in a backwards slash at the end of the last link, take it out to make the link work.

Simen Thoresen

MM;
"
Well, capitalism did nothing for me… The system is not set up to help somebody from the working class make a movie like this and get the truth out there.
"

But capitalism has not /helped/ Michael - he's still as unhappy and white as he always has been.

What capitalism does, is to ensure that there are incentives to save, so that savings can be utilized as investments, so that consumption-needs can be met to greater efficiency.
(I won't venture into how the credit-banking system of today totally changes the incentives and effectively disrupts the core of capitalism, instead rendering it into a special-interest process for transferring the savings of foreigners into more wealth for the most wealthy)

None of this is rigged to provide a person like mr Moore with anything special - any help that no-one else is getting. Capitalism provides MM with cheap housing, cheap clothing, cheap transport, cheap equipment for whatever he wants do do and cheap manpower for when he needs it. It won't help him to get over his whining.

-S

Simen Thoresen

Tim;

Thumbs-up for this one.

It seems that the essential point is that intentions and perceptions do matter, so even if things look, talk, quack and walk the same, they are not ducks if one of them claims, or is seen, to be a progressive.

This is a return to the world-view of magic and witchcraft, where the perceived intentions of the subject affect the view of the outcome significantly stronger than what the means and observable results do.

I've likened this to basing policy on the known fact that people can fly if they only start from a high-enough ledge, and that all failures of flying stem from the ledge not being high enough when they jump out.

-S

David

“I didn’t know ‘the system’ was supposed to ‘help’ Michael Moore make his films.”

Ah, but The System should actively help him tell The Truth! Testify, brother, testify! There’s an extraordinary presumption lurking in there somewhere. Though I’d say Mr Moore has done quite nicely in his evangelical mission. If The System was supposed to crush him into oblivion and silence his dissent, it hasn’t done it very well. It seems to me that capitalism is remarkably accommodating of criticism, unlike other social models that come to mind.

Moore’s statement seems to hinge on a bizarre definition of capitalism. When Disney gets in Moore’s way that’s “capitalism” oppressing him; when Harper-Collins gets in his way that’s “capitalism” oppressing him too. But when Moore amasses a personal fortune by selling his various products that’s… well, something else presumably. But isn’t it just the standard pattern? Much as certain socialist pop musicians badmouth capitalism in front of their young, impressionable followers while studiously reaping its benefits, sometimes from a house in France.

Karen M

Debbie Schlussel lays into him:

"Moore also tells us that the reason planes crash is that pilots aren't paid enough. So it's ironic that he uses testimony of Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger to bolster his argument, since birds were the reason his plane sank. Moore tells us that pilots have to work multiple jobs and go on food stamps to survive. That's tragic. But it isn't –as Moore claims– the reason pilots crash."

"Moore insist on "fairness in the workplace," but how fair is it for one person to put in his heart and soul and risk everything, and then be forced to give it away to his employees when the risk turns into a successful product and/or company? He merely tells us that everyone should be like Jonas Salk who gave away his polio vaccine. But has Moore ever given away his movies and said, hey, Hollywood, don't pay me? Moore shows a bunch of mansions of CEOs of companies and is upset by them. But two properties in the movie are missing: Moore's mansion in Torch Lake in Michigan and his $1.2 million apartment in New York. CEOs aren't allowed to live well. Only a fat film guy from Flint is."

"And finally, there's the company in Madison, Wisconsin that Moore portrays as paradise on earth. Employees own the company and decide what wages are paid and everyone owns everything… The problem is Michael Moore hasn't taken steps to do that himself. He owns his company and he and his wife don't equally divide the profits and wages among his workers. In fact, ex-employees of Moore's have repeatedly claimed he did not pay them overtime, minimum wage, or benefits, and abused his position as an employer… Do Michael Moore's Best Boys and Key Grips get to vote on how his profits are spent? Do they make what he's making on "Capitalism: A Love Story"? Of course, not. There's no equity and egalitarianism in Moore's camp. Like Terry Lawson said, his blue collar act is a fraud."

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/9886/lies-damn-lies-michael-moore-cinema-polemics/

David

Even setting aside the ludicrous hypocrisy of the man, and even allowing that he will, inevitably, find some outrageous and valid targets, the problem is he’s so logically and factually unreliable. He serves up plenty of emotive juxtapositions, wild extrapolations and insinuations of culpability, but causal and logical links are much less readily offered. And given his past mendacity, there’s little confidence that his claims can be taken at face value. It’s quite strange watching his films, in that you feel you ought to continually be checking whether what he says is actually true.

Which isn’t exactly ideal for a documentary maker.

Subject of the Realm

"Debbie Schlussel lays into him:"

Debbie Schulssel? Now that's someone capitalism is really set up to help. A coarse and bilious idiot with no discernible talent who, for some reason, is not on the street, selling pencils from a cup.

Sorry. Carry on. I'll help: "Michael Moore is fat!!"

Simen Thoresen

Karen,
"
He owns his company and he and his wife don't equally divide the profits and wages among his workers. In fact, ex-employees of Moore's have repeatedly claimed he did not pay them overtime, minimum wage, or benefits, and abused his position as an employer…
"

Please remember that what Michael does is actually important. It is essential for his work that he gets to invest as much of his income as possible, so that he can keep doing what benefits us all. I'm guessing that once he has had what is his just share, he will only be too happy to spread his wealth out in equal shares, or at least at the minimum wage.

Also, I take a little objection to Subject's snark. Mr Moore is not fat, he has a great heart, and has expanded his body to hold it.

-S

Subject of the Realm

I wasn't making a serious comment. I'm dismissing this disappointing and predictable effort.

They can't all be winners, I suppose. But it seems that picking this nit misses the point; capitalism's worst enemy is irrational exuberance and if anyone is interested in saving it, they should welcome any and all critique of it (and provide reviews of those critiques), particularly given the fact that, in America, Michael Moore's work is about the only critique of capitalism that ever achieves mainstream appeal.

I do believe Moore's work is manipulative, but when you survey the media landscape in the US, it's a drop in a sea of corporate propaganda.

Given the massive global financial meltdown, I find it odd that I even have to make that point.

 Simen

Subject,

Having tried (and failed) a few times to compose a follow up, I guess I must accept your initial point as valid. Michael Moore is indeed fat.

I'm sorry that my own attempt at levity failed. I will try to do better and clearer in the future.

Humbly,
-S

sackcloth and ashes

'Subject of the Realm', if you can point out where Michael Moore has made your criticisms of unregulated capitalism and the irresponsible 'bonus culture' of the financial sector, I'll take your point. But seeing as his output - to my mind - is about screaming about how evil capitalism and big business is (while profiting personally through the means he decries), I think you can take the basic point here which is that he's a shameless fucking hypocrite.

David Gillies

"Michael Moore's work is about the only critique of capitalism that ever achieves mainstream appeal."

Except it tanked.

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