David Thompson
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August 01, 2015

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Mags

the 53-year-old Ms Bindel, for whom radical lezzer is a profession,

Snork.

David

Snork.

But it is her profession. Her livelihood, media status and charming public persona are premised on an old-school radical lesbianism tarted-up as a vocation. She gets paid to write articles claiming that, whatever the problem of the week is, we should all be blaming men for it. And so, if some lesbians are regarding other lesbians, butch ones, as unfashionable, this must, simply must, be the fault of The Patriarchy, i.e., straight men.

Jimmy

All should tremble in fear at psychic-war prowess of dicktocracy.

Rafi

*waves phallic tentacles*

ACTOldFart

"Being openly and proudly butch has now… become something that many in the lesbian community look down on. At the same time, within gay male culture, being camp or in any way “feminine” is derided."

It sounds as though large numbers of lesbians and gay men have grown up and thrown off the need for ostentatious pretension. I wonder when Ms Bindel will catch up to this trend.

R. Sherman

Attention, Patriarchs. We must redouble our infiltration of lesbian bars and Sapphic subculture.

Point of order. David, while The Patriarchy appreciates the spirit of your unilateral efforts, such items must be properly placed on an agenda for discussion by the full membership. I've taken the liberty of submitting the above item to the recording secretary, Mrs. Irma Snodgrass, as "New Business" at the next meeting to be held a 7:00 P.M. this coming Wednesday at the American Legion Hall, Beulah, North Dakota.

BYOB

David

the next meeting to be held at 7:00 P.M. this coming Wednesday

We should all tune our amulets to 77 MHz. The emergency jamming frequency. We don’t want any womenfolk listening in.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

Those of us who reject what I would call the insignia of our oppression – lipstick and lingerie – are seen as a threat.

The concept of that Bindle fellow in lingerie would indeed be oppressing, not to mention horrifying.

Let’s face it, plenty of men expect lesbians to look like the women acting out their fantasies in girl-on-girl porn...

No, we don't expect it, we would prefer them to look like Herr Bindle, e.g., not unlike they would make a train take a dirt road at midnight, because we would prefer the ones that look like the ones in girl-on-girl porn to be available to our team.

I denounce myself.

Donkey jacket - being in the USandA I have learned a new term, however for clarification, if a jacket meets all the criteria but has a zipper instead of buttons is it a donkey jacket, and if so, does wearing one have any significance ?

Glenfilthie

Mocking The Guardian?

I dunno Dave. Strikes me as being a bit unsporting. Kinda like beating up Donny The Retard...or shooting fish in a bucket...

pst314

"Affected burliness for gay ladies is no longer deemed fashionable"

Less widely known is that stringent air pollution regulations have led to the demise of the gasoline-powered vibrator.

Anna

"I'm not fashionable (or attractive or young) any more. It's all the Patriarchy's fault."

David

“I’m not fashionable (or attractive or young) any more. It’s all the Patriarchy’s fault.”

She does seem to be blaming her obsolescence on The Scheming Patriarchy™ instead of, say, Mother Nature.

David

At risk of being ungentlemanly, there’s something else worth pointing out. Ms Bindel has spent years denouncing norms of attractiveness and insisting that all women should embrace lesbianism regardless of whether or not they find women sexually attractive because it’s their feminist duty to get Sapphic. Ideally with a woman who doesn’t conform to normative beauty standards. Now, however, bull dykes are apparently unfashionable and being a plain and ostentatiously butch lesbian is no longer regarded as a marker of edginess and radicalism.

Which may leave some mannish, heavy-set lesbians of a certain age feeling a bit miffed.

R. Sherman

Which may leave some mannish, heavy-set lesbians of a certain age feeling a bit miffed.

Perhaps there's a new "makeover" reality show in the offing. Bruce Jenner can star.

(Don't bother. I denounce myself.)

Tim Newman

At the same time, within gay male culture, being camp or in any way “feminine” is derided, whereas hyper masculinity is celebrated.

Thank fuck for that. I find the over-the-top, utterly false campness that some gays exhibit to be annoying in the extreme. I appreciate some men can be camp, but most of the time it's like listening to somebody fake an accent.

David

most of the time it’s like listening to somebody fake an accent.

Amen, brother.

Seb

Also, the affected attitudes never made sense to me, in our current environment. Gay men are attracted to guys, not women. So why would gay men be acting "feminine" to attract other gay men? Insecurity in their sexuality? Normally my line is "dude, chicks dig confidence" but I think it could be stretched to "gay dude, dudes dig confidence". The men who made the most "sense" to me as being gay were pretty manly, all things considered.

I always thought the others were overcompensating, but then massive rejection and oppression by official society will tend to make people nervous and insecure. I was born in 1970, by the time I got to college, attitudes towards gays were pretty set in stone (bigots didn't accept them, normal people did: that was the attitude). Glad that the overcompensation and the oppression that caused it are disappearing, if that's what's happening.

IDM, obviously.

David

For those of you interested in the “sad puppy” phenomenon and the scolding of science fiction authors by social justice jihadis, Larry Correia’s parsing of the Guardian may amuse.

Rich Rostrom

Interesting that Ms. Bindel "thought most women I saw in the street were lesbians". This is typical grotesque overestimation of homosexuality. Ms. Bindel wants all women to be lesbians; she imagines that many are, not the 1%-2% of reality.

As to the fashionability of butchness - in the 2015 Tony, the musical category was dominated by "Fun Home", based on the graphic novel memoirs of lesbian comics artist Alison Bechdel. An excerpt was performed by the 11-year-old star of "Fun Home": "Small Alison"'s passionate solo about seeing a butch workwoman in the local diner at breakfast. (Is it just me, or is there something kind of creepy about having a child acting out homosexual yearnings?)

David

Interesting that Ms. Bindel “thought most women I saw in the street were lesbians”.

It’s more that she’s unhappy about gay people blending in and, as she imagines it, “seeking approval” from those dastardly heterosexuals. Presumably, she would prefer gay people to make conspicuous and eccentric displays, at all times, everywhere, in order to signal their defiance of “socially constructed gender rules” and the, um, terrible oppression felt by gay people in Sweden and Britain in… um, 2015.

pst314

"Interesting that Ms. Bindel 'thought most women I saw in the street were lesbians'. This is typical grotesque overestimation of homosexuality."

Yes. It reminded me of Samuel R. Delany's discovery of homoeroticism in Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers. Delany, who spent much free time trolling for anonymous gay sex, got a stiffy reading about manly men doing manly things, so obviously Heinlein must have been sublimating his own homosexual inclinations. (Of course, imputing homosexual feelings to the patriotic and libertarian Heinlein was also a convenient albeit sleazy way for the Marxist Delany to indirectly attack the patriotic message of the novel.)

Fuel Filter

Appears she's just becoming aware she's *way* on the downside of any SMV she may have had (or not).

Poor dear.

David Gillies

My default assumption is that if a friend or acquaintance feels it is necessary for me to know they're gay, they will tell me. The corollary of this is it is never necessary for me to know. My gaydar is vacuum-tube era and prone to getting confused by ground clutter, but that has not caused me any difficulties. I really, really don't care, and for most people gay or straight who are acting in good faith that's good enough.

The biggest problem with Julie Bindel is that while for most people being gay or straight is something they are, being a lesbian is something she does.

mojo

"Chthonic Homesick Blues", in D minor, for the little lady...

Chester Draws

My default assumption is that if a friend or acquaintance feels it is necessary for me to know they're gay, they will tell me. The corollary of this is it is never necessary for me to know.

Some guys are into feet and shoes in an erotic way. I don't want to know.

Some people, apparently, get off on rubber and lycra. I really don't want to know.

In the same way, I keep my personal sexual preferences entirely to myself and Mrs Draws.

Likewise I don't really want anyone to signal their interest in the same sex. I'm not into it, and I don't care.

When you are oppressed for your sexual beliefs, the most important thing about you is your sexual preference. It's why paedophiles can be abhorred, yet be proud to join the likes of NAMBLA.

As gays are no longer particularly ostracised, their sexual preference becomes a much less important part of their personhood. Accordingly, they will dress in order to show other parts of their personality. The bits other people might actually be interested in.

Hal

. . . The technically and literally correct term for a woman Marine or a gay Marine or a gay woman Marine is: Marine.

Quint&Jessel, Sea of Azof, Bly, UK

So...your clothes, her choice?

Q30

David, I'm very confused and I'm wondering if I'm mis-understanding something.

Feminists of Ms. Bindel's stripe-- I might be mistaken here in saying thing-- often seem to have a disdain for stereotypically masculine features. They're Neanderthalic, rough, abrasive, and so on. Such stereotypically masculine features evoke a kind of up-turned nose, like it's a bad stink in the room.

But when these same kinds of characteristics appear in butch lesbians, they are... acceptable, nay, praiseworthy?

Am I getting it wrong? I don't think I'm intentionally getting it wrong.

sH2

within gay male culture, being camp or in any way “feminine” is derided, whereas hyper masculinity is celebrated.

Er, can someone explain what the hell "hyper masculinity" is? Is it growing a beard? Chopping firewood? Driving a tractor?

David

Er, can someone explain what the hell “hyper masculinity” is?

She doesn’t say. I think we’re supposed to just know these things - and then nod in agreement, obviously. I assume it’s something that’s bad when men do it but fine when burly lesbians do it. Because “masculinity and femininity [are] socially constructed rather than innate.” Or something.

Jonathan

Presumably, she would prefer gay people to make conspicuous and eccentric displays, at all times, everywhere, in order to signal their defiance of “socially constructed gender rules” and the, um, terrible oppression felt by gay people in Sweden and Britain in… um, 2015.

Ms Bindel underestimates the desire of the majority of people, of whatever sexual persuasion, simply to 'fit-in'. Maybe she thinks they should wear some distinctive sign on their clothes - perhaps a pink triangle - to mark them out. Or maybe, just maybe, she's not as special as she once thought.

David

most of the time it’s like listening to somebody fake an accent.

The whole camp thing always struck me as bizarre. I once worked for the same company as a guy who was camp (and gay). Lots of gesturing and squealing with his female colleagues, always ‘on’, always performing. It seemed to me that the message being sent was “Don’t hate me, I’m harmless.”

Ten

Apparently, Speciesism is NOT a thing.

Because you don't get a say if you're not oppressed. And because comparing people of color to animals - like so you do - is an inherent component of animal rights activism.

Or something.

David

Right, it’s the mother-in-law’s birthday and we’re off for a pub lunch. Play nicely.

Jeff Guinn

Feminist theory rejected the notion of gender rules, and recognised masculinity and femininity as socially constructed rather than innate.

So let me get this straight: according to her, evolution stopped at the neckline.

She makes Creationists sound positively sensible.

Franklin

...there are not that many tool belts and buzz cuts to see in that genre.

She is so not trying hard enough.

David

She is so not trying hard enough.

I love it when I learn something from a thread.

Theophrastus

Last night, on the BBC World Service, I caught a repeat of a 2011 interview with Jeanette Winterson in which she said that the gender (sic) of the person that you are sleeping with is the least interesting thing about you. I was so surprised by her good sense that I might even read one of her novels. One day.

Jeff Guinn

No surprise. Why and What are two entirely different concepts, after all.

Nikw211

Larry Correia’s parsing of the Guardian may amuse.

Oh, it most certainly did and not only because I am a regular reader of SFF fiction.

Says Adam Roberts of The Guardian (with much head-wagging disapproval):

    ... infiltrators unhappy at the liberal direction of modern science fiction have gamed the polling for the Hugo awards ... If they win, sci-fi loses

and

    That’s because two linked online campaign groups … have been campaigning hard to register supporters and bump their preferred titles on to the shortlists.

Does this sound familiar to anyone else?

What about if we were to substitute the words in italics for, oh I don't know, "Jeremy Corbyn", "Labour Leadership candidates", "Liz Kendall" etc.?

Would we see the same level of disapproval shown towards the sad puppies campaign then? Or would it all just mysteriously whither away before a noisy and robust argument in favour of democratic principles within the Labour party?

Theophrastus

JG: My surprise was not at what JW said but at the fact that she of all people was capable of saying it.

bgates

She does seem to be blaming her obsolescence on The Scheming Patriarchy™ instead of, say, Mother Nature.

Come now - Mother Nature imbued her with The Glory That Is Woman.

It's Father Time that's sent the whole thing to hell.

Q30

So let me get this straight: according to her, evolution stopped at the neckline.

No no, Jeff, evolution stopped at the brain-blood barrier. Only "socialization" ever affects the brain.

Boys are given trucks and girls are given dolls. That's the problem.

Girls should therefore be given trucks and boys must be given dolls. And if they switch their toys, their incorrect behavior must be corrected instantly. Furthermore, girls should be encouraged to hit boys while boys should be suspended for sexual harassment if they dare to hold a girl's hand.

Do you not understand these things?

mojo

California's Asylum (in the Bedlamic vein) is at it again. Beware: Idiocy ahead

"The California Legislature is debating a bill that has passed through committee that would phase out hierarchy within a company. The bill is considered a landmark bill by many to eliminate what has been referred to as “wholesale oppression” of employees of a company.

Speaker of the Assembly Toni G. Atkins (D-San Diego) sponsored the bill and hailed it as the next step in equal rights for all Americans. In the State Senate, President Pro Tem Kevin De León cheered the efforts of Speaker Atkins and stated he and his caucus were fully on board. De León (D-Los Angeles) said, “No longer will workers confront the hostile environment which comes every day when they have to face being stratified in their careers.”"

mojo

PS: Suggested movie: "As Good As It Gets"

"Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here."

R. Sherman

@mojo

You were not kidding. I wonder how many businesses are packing their bags for Nevada, as we speak. Also, a fired a employee is still fired whether the business owner is called "boss" or "comrade."

Jimmy

Surely that's a joke...

WTP

Not seeing much from other sources. The AB-69 bill does show hits as an immigration bill from last year. Though wouldn't be the first time today's joke became tomorrow's history. I suspect such is how Joe Biden became VP of the most powerful economic, military, and political power in the 10,000 years of recorded human history. Wouldn't it be funny if...

Hal

Surely that's a joke...

Bingo, judging from appearances . . .

AB-69 details the terms which can no longer as stated in the law be used to “create a hostile work environment.” As codified in the law, the terms “supervisor, manager, overseer, team leader, leader, producer, director, controller, chair, boss, captain, head person, head honcho, authority, chief, chairperson, c . . .. Etc.

There is an AB-69 at the moment, However . . . . .

AB 69, as amended, Rodriguez. Peace officers: body-worn cameras.

Existing law makes it a crime to intentionally record a confidential communication without the consent of all parties to the communication. Existing law exempts specified peace officers from that provision if they are acting within the scope of their authority.

This bill would require law enforcement agencies to consider specified best practices when establishing policies and procedures for downloading and storing data from body-worn cameras, including, among other things, prohibiting the unauthorized use, duplication, or distribution of the data, and establishing storage periods for evidentiary and nonevidentiary data, as defined.

Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: yes. State-mandated local program: no.

The actual AB-69 is a discussion of, as it states, Peace officers: body-worn cameras., Etc . . .

Watcher In The Dark

"Butch" always makes me think of a butcher, with a blood-stained apron and cleaver in hand. Sorry to all ladies of a butch persuasion, but that's how you appear to me.

TDK

Recall that Julie detests what she refers to as lipstick lesbians. This appears to be a part of a dislike of choices transgendered people make:

"Those who ‘transition' seem to become stereotypical in their appearance — f**k-me shoes and birds' nest hair for the boys; beards, muscles and tattoos for the girls. Think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of Grease."

I think that's kind of funny but mostly true. What's missing is the complete absence of any empathetic sense that would challenge her own biases. To Julie no one would wear make-up unless they were forced to. The idea that someone is doing so from their own free will is inconceivable. The thought that women might be party to changes in fashion is anathema. Ergo it must be the patriarchy.

mojo

Ah, well. Hey, I live here, nothing would truly surprise me coming out of Sacratomato.

Jerry needs to be fitted for a very long-armed smoking jacket, and the AG belongs in jail.

dicentra

the insignia of our oppression – lipstick and lingerie – are seen as a threat.

I don't wear either and I'm a straight girl person. Just not a particularly girly girl person.

Who the hell cares? If you're a lesbian who genuinely has a passion for driving truck and you genuinely dig dressing, talking, and acting like the other male truckers, then go for it. Knock yourself out. My blessing, as if you needed it.

Likewise, if you're a lesbian whose breath is taken away by frilly, feminine accoutrements, follow your bliss wherever it takes you. Do yourself up like Scarlett O'Hara complete with hoopskirts for all I care.

In fact, NOBODY CARES. No need to make yourself unhappy trying to be edgier than thou just because some bitter activist says so.

Also, it looks like Old Lesbians envy Young Lesbians just as much as Old Straight Women resent the giggly young things who steal their husbands.

So they're real, stereotypical women after all.

It’s more that she’s unhappy about gay people blending in and, as she imagines it, “seeking approval” from those dastardly heterosexuals.

Exactly like the way black conservatives (and gays) in America are excoriated as sycophants, sucking up to their enemies instead of being Down With The Cause.

As if.

It's frustrating to be white in America because many People of Color (the activists and public figures, anyway) are living a psychodrama that the rest of us don't even know about. I remember that during the Anita Hill testimony against Clarenc Thomas I was introduced to all kinds of stereotypes about black male sexuality that I -- a graduate student -- had never even heard of.

I was raised in the Deep West, where there are so few blacks that there's no way to blame them for any of the problems and so there was certainly no opportunity for I, as a child, to overhear adults muttering about Those People under their breaths.

dicentra

So let me get this straight: according to her, evolution stopped at the neckline.

Absolutely.

The idea that hormones, in utero, inform how the brain is organized is the worst kind of heresy. If you identify any physiological difference between the female and male brains -- even if the women come out ahead in a particular area -- that just gives Teh Patriarchy a pretext to keep women out of the CEO's office.

And we can't have that.

So even though in all other species testosterone makes males randy and aggressive and estrogen turns females into nesting caretakers, those same characteristics in humans are PURELY SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED BY THE PATRIARCHY to oppress and control.

SCIENCE!

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