David Thompson
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September 21, 2016

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Alice

And labelling the people who correct those zombie misconceptions, the ones that refuse to die, as “cis, white, straight dudes,” even when they’re ladies, as in the links above, is an evasion, not an argument.

Misgendering is violence! I denounce her!

rjmadden

I don’t think we should value intellect… as a trait

Evidently.

Tim Newman

all of these cis, white, straight dudes

Such as Christina Hoff Sommers?

Off topic, but did anyone else see this appalling story of an artist put through literal hell?

abacab

...in asking us to reconsider ideas that we’ve already contemplated deeply. Except... Your thoughts [as a man] – no matter how well-intentioned, well-thought-out, or well-researched they are – simply pale in comparison to living in a marginalised body that experiences the trauma of oppression.

But then I'm one of those STEM types who expect logical consistency, and universal standards to be applied. How...erm... oppressive of me.

Mike

layperson (especially one who is a straight, cis man).

F*cking hell.

David

F*cking hell.

Some of her peers are careful to obscure their underlying vanities and assumptions, usually under mountains of gratuitous jargon, such that grammar itself buckles under the weight. But as often as not, Ms Fabello just blurts them out, as if oblivious to what she’s saying and what that says about her. It’s almost… charming.

Single Acts of Tyranny

"This man – who I think thought he was acting as some kind of hero to mankind – called in to regurgitate the stances that I had already rebuked"

Rebuke of course means to express disapproval, not to dis-prove. So she's unhappy when someone calls is to express views she's already said she does not approve of. The Patriarchal bastard.

Ray

Why am I not surprised Everyday Feminism doesn't allow comments?

NielsR

"I wish that I was exaggerating here, but in all honesty, a typical Facebook conversation [...] "

speaking of arguments that aren't load-bearing...

No link to the radio show, I see, or even a mention of the station. We'll just have to trust her reproduction of her lived experience. I'm sure she will rise above her subjective biases, her profit-motive for the broadcast and the article, and any personal trauma around the topic at hand.

David

speaking of arguments that aren’t load-bearing...

But she’s a self-described “intellectual being” who doesn’t “think we should value intellect” because that would be “ableist,” and who dismisses the views of “cis, white, straight dudes” as being by default suspect, unimportant or simply wrong. How can you not defer to her, in this and all things?

NielsR

I know, defenders of the status quo can be so darn stubborn.

David

Why am I not surprised Everyday Feminism doesn’t allow comments?

Speaking of comment sections:

tolkein

Erm, I' not so sure that there wasn't a Romulus at the start of Rome. I don't buy the wolves bit, or son of Mars, but Romulus as an historical character around whom lots of stories grew up? The Heracles of the Greek myths, didn't happen. Heracles as a Dark Age hero, maybe. The Hengist (and I know the name means stallion, but people do have nicknames) of the AS Chronicle may well be the same as the one referred to in the story of Finn. Sometimes brigands become kings. In fact, isn't that how most kings start?

Burnsie

You’re signalling to us that you don’t trust our ability to think critically.

Well, the obvious sane response is, "Duh."

David

I don’t buy the wolves bit, or son of Mars, but Romulus as an historical character around whom lots of stories grew up?

There’s a lively to-and-fro between Christina Hoff Sommers and Nancy Lemon on that and other matters here. I do like the reference to Elvis sightings.

David

Somewhat related:

Women earned more doctoral degrees than men in 2015 – the seventh year in a row this has occurred. They also earned more master’s degrees and outnumber men in graduate school… Women made up a majority of degrees in seven out of 11 different fields. But the fields where men outnumbered women are some of the highest-paid ones, including business, engineering, mathematics and physical sciences. Women outnumbered men in majors such as arts and humanities, education and social sciences.

Glenn Reynolds adds, “When these women wind up with student-debt problems, that will be the fault of the patriarchy, of course.”

CayleyGraph
Whenever someone responds to my critique of the culture in which we live with what they believe to be a deep conundrum or contradiction, my first thought is, “Wow. You have absolutely no respect for me as an intellectual being.”
Huh, she's actually more perceptive than I expected.
Joan

Whenever someone responds to my critique of the culture in which we live with what they believe to be a deep conundrum or contradiction, my first thought is, “Wow. You have absolutely no respect for me as an intellectual being.”

Translation: don't talk back.

David

Translation: don’t talk back.

Pretty much.

We’ve been here before, of course.

R. Sherman

...[H]ow tiresome it is for a feminist, a bearer of enlightenment, such as herself, to debate with a mere

"layperson (especially one who is a straight, cis man)."

The use of the term "layperson" is indeed interesting. Perhaps she deploys it to describe a "non-professional" in the field, in which case, one must ask what the certification process for professional status is, beyond merely counting out the change for enough bandwidth.

Alternatively, perhaps there's a bit of Freudian honesty involved, in that she acknowledges that Feminism is a religion, held on faith and preached to the willing by a clergy of self-declared priestesses. Flying Spaghetti Monsters, indeed.

David

Your thoughts [as a man] – no matter how well-intentioned, well-thought-out, or well-researched they are – simply pale in comparison to living in a marginalised body that experiences the trauma of oppression.

Somewhat related.

tolkein

There’s a lively to-and-fro between Christina Hoff Sommers and Nancy Lemon on that and other matters here.

And very entertaining it is too. I think Sommers won by a knock out.
But that doesn't mean that Romulus didn't exist (nor Heracles or Achilles).

champ

"Somewhat related"

STEM syllabi is misogynist and antifeminist because they prioritize facts over subjectivity

Lady, if you don't like how STEM is taught, go create your own teaching model.

TimT

Off topic but what the hell. Welcome to the Gay Book Club - sorry, Queer Theory Reading Group - folks!

R. Sherman

@Champ

This is either an English paper or a Linguistics one.

The tip-off is the phrase "critical discourse analysis." This should be distinguished from "discourse analysis" which generally has no political component.

The example I'm familiar with was discussed in my wife's Ph.D. dissertation 30 years ago which had to do with syntatic changes which occur in different modes of communication and in different settings. She had two mathematicians on her doctoral committee. The dissertation was 800 pages in two volumes.

I showed her the above abstract. She was disgusted. There was cursing in multiple languages involved. Suffice it to say, she's not a fan.

Darleen

Oh good lord, who let that female out of the kitchen?

Spiny Norman

Somewhat related.

STEM syllabi is misogynist and antifeminist because they prioritize facts over subjectivity.

Feelz, not facts, people!

Hopp Singg

The domain Cis-man.com is still available, David. Spandex optional.

abacab

STEM syllabi is misogynist and antifeminist because they prioritize facts over subjectivity.

So does a feminist bridge fall down or not?

I guess I'm a bigot for even posing the question.

David Gillies

When the world has dealt you as shoddy an intellectual hand as it has this Fabello creature, it's not surprising you might find facts oppressive.

Hopp Singg

Are these fact-facts were talking about? If we're really talking, that is.

PiperPaul

"The domain Cis-man.com is still available, David."

But then David'd be culturally appropriating an identity if he bought it, no?

Hopp Singg

Well, I _think_ it's appropriate to him, but am open to argument.

Hal

So does a feminist bridge fall down or not?

Hopp Singg

I would think the answer is obvious: yes, the bridge falls down ... but it's not her fault.

David

yes, the bridge falls down ... but it’s not her fault.

Heh.

abacab

Damn patriarchy, making feminist bridges fall down with their STEM absolutism.

Hopp Singg

Fwiw, my bridge stands, despite constant undermining. I'll hold my nose, cross, and wonder.

RF

STEM syllabi is misogynist and antifeminist because they prioritize facts over subjectivity

In other words, she believes women aren't good at math.

Hedgehog

STEM syllabi is misogynist and antifeminist because they prioritize facts over subjectivity

Is that really the point of feminism nowadays? To affirm all the invidious stereotypes about women, that they are illogical and hysterical (good one, that) and ruled by their emotions? Wasn't Lawrence Summers kicked out as president of Harvard for saying just that?

David

Is that really the point of feminism nowadays? To affirm all the invidious stereotypes about women

Well, if you’d just arrived on Earth and based your estimation of our fairer sex on a random sampling of Women’s Studies graduates, you might reasonably suppose that women in general must be credulous, self-flattering and generally obnoxious.

Which seems a tad unfair, but there we are.

Hedgehog

Anybody here know if the Dalston Mercury is a reputable news source?

WTP

I'm guessing Gerta Müff-Fümbler would say yes. But then I'm also guessing Gerta Müff-Fümbler is a fictitious character. But the again, aren't they all?

RightofGenghis

The modern world really has done an enormous disservice to women like Ms. Fab. Our culture has made it so easy to attain a certain level of luxury that humans with very little natural ability or skill can do quite well by themselves, despite their narcissism. We have effectively cordoned these people off from the natural process whereby dysfunction is punished and adaptation is encouraged. Effectively, we've subsidized her anti-social tendencies and allowed her to self-isolate from any feedback which might help her bring value to the civilization she lives in...which, sadly, means that she'll never gain any true satisfaction in her life.

Hopp Singg

What price vanity? Oh, dearie, it's a process. Whaddya got left?

Daniel Ream

The modern world [...]

TL;DR version: "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

Spiny Norman

Hedgehog,

That looks like rather broad satire. Unfortunately, the Spectator article it links to is not (and I believe has been discussed here).

Q30

"Your thoughts [as a man] – no matter how well-intentioned, well-thought-out, or well-researched they are – simply pale in comparison to living in a marginalised body that experiences the trauma of oppression."

Your facts are no match for my feelz! Because ableism!

MrMaitra

This is the reason for wage gap...and post doc job stats.

http://bombsdollars.com/index/index.php/2016/09/12/i-came-across-an-interesting-research-paper/

George

It's the "syllabi is" that gets me....

Hedgehog

It's the "syllabi is" that gets me....

Yeah, I thought the same thing. But I figured it wouldn't be sporting to point out the lack of education of a hard-core feminist. Fish in a barrel and all that.

Trevor

It's the "syllabi is" that gets me....

To be fair, that particular abomination seems to be the work of the Twitter account drawing attention to the 'analysis' rather than the 'critical thinker' herself.

Jay

Are there really now so many who question their 'birth gender' that society requires to identify those who don't by the label, "cis"?

George

Indeed, Trevor, you is right. People in glass houses and whatnot...

TomJ

Am I the only one to think that the best way to demonstrate respect for someone as an intellectual being is to subject their ideas to the same standard of scrutiny I'd expect my own to be held to...

Hopp Singg

When feminists say "respect," they mean "toe-kissing subservience," thus your confusion.

PiperPaul

"the Critical thinker Theorist herself"

Chester Draws

The modern world really has done an enormous disservice to women like Ms. Fab.

They're not a new phenomenon though.

Prior to the Modern era these people were what drove extreme religious sects like the Flagellants, Anabaptists, Levellers, Puritans and assorted ascetics. From a similar position of unreality they would then castigated the mass of humanity for their sins, and proposed "solutions" that were not really thought through with how people actually live.

Later versions moved to mass political parties that sought "purity" in some way or other: Fascists, Marxists, Trotskyists, Anarchists, etc.

Compared to previously, we should be grateful. While dangerous, they are at least fragmented.

David

So anyway, this lady tweeted Ms Fabello and directed her attention to the piece above.

Ms Fabello responded thusly:

You can imagine my distress.

Note that Ms Fabello chooses not to share the original tweet with her readers, or a link to the offending post, so that they might determine for themselves just how awful and irrelevant it is.

rjmadden

Ms Fabello responded thusly:

I picture our host laughing into his coffee.

David

I picture our host laughing into his coffee.

Well, when someone disdains the very idea of engaging with criticism from people not already sympathetic and in her personal contacts list, while inadvertently confirming, quite vividly, at least one of the points being raised, it’s hard not to smile.

I’m only human, after all.

AnotherFred

I'm sure Ms. Fabello would accuse Paula Wright of suffering from "false consciousness"; Wright's interests lie in evolutionary psychology, and she leans toward fact-based argumentation—qualities that would not endear her to the merry social-constructivists over on EF. She's certainly no fan of post-modern feminism.

She has some interesting posts over on her site.

When people you've never heard of write "analyses" of your work and personhood . . .

Are we to then assume that we have no basis for criticizing and argument unless we know the author(s) well? If so, what intellectual process alchemy allows Fabello and others of her ilk to skirt around their own ignorance, or are they, as enlightened beings, exempt from such things?

David

She has some interesting posts over on her site.

Yes. This one caught my eye. Specifically,

The cited reference is to support the claim that “Evidence shows that the majority of perpetrators of this abuse are boys, and the majority of victims are girls.” It took me a while to find a breakdown of the sex of the harassers – in all graphs they are referred to in sex and gender neutral terms – but when I did, it revealed something very interesting…

The findings here clearly state that even if girls are more harassed in total, they are not more harassed by boys, they are harassed by other girls. Spending more money on teaching kids about consent, as is in the recommendations, will not help victims. Demonising boys, toxic masculinity or “laddism” – all deemed problematic in the report – will not help anyone. The claim they want to help boys is hollow. The claim they want to help girls even more so.

I research female intrasexual competition, something I frequently call the pink elephant in the feminist room. Female competition and rivalry exists but takes a very different form from male competition, which is more open. What these reports are uncovering is not the tip of the iceberg of endemic male chauvinism but of endemic female passive aggressive bullying of their female rivals.

I’ve added Ms Wright to the blogroll. Worth a visit.

PiperPaul

"endemic female passive aggressive bullying of their female rivals"

Wasn't it Ace who mentioned something about boys at about the age of 12 learning that assholism can have face-punching consequences while girls, on the other hand...

Liz

So she's vain, stupid and a racist too.

https://twitter.com/fyeahmfabello/status/779687536088256512

Captain Nemo

Dave Waterman's reply to her is brilliant. Although I do wonder if she'd like some Aloe Vera. She just got burned.

David

So she’s vain, stupid and a racist too.

Imagine feeling such a need to signal in-group piety – in this case, an ostentatious disdain for the entire white male population - that you’re willing to sacrifice all realism and coherence and become an absurdity, a cartoon. Not just once, but every single day.

The word neurotic barely covers it.

Hal

Imagine feeling such a need to signal . . .

Granting a feature that only registers at this general cultural moment, and will be only a sociological surreality in time, one doesn't even need to read any of the text to see her own open and absolute signaling of her message of being an openly clueless ditz of the moment with a demand that all recognize her as lightweight and utterly irrelevant.

Go to the twit account, and the very first thing that one sees is a hipster variety outline image of a pair of glasses---and at this moment, to help underline the message of irrelevance, the pinned note at the top of the queue has an image . . .

. . . with the exact same pictographic insistence that she be ignored.

AnotherFred

She responded to the list of philosophers with this: https://twitter.com/fyeahmfabello/status/779723370577428481

"Y'all. I can't."

We should all genuflect to her superior debating skills . . . when they actually manifest themselves in a tangible form.

Anna

And labelling the people who correct those zombie misconceptions, the ones that refuse to die, as “cis, white, straight dudes,” even when they’re ladies, as in the links above, is an evasion, not an argument.

'Social justice' means feeling good about not listening to people based on their sex and race.

David

‘Social justice’ means feeling good about not listening to people based on their sex and race.

Heh. Pretty much. Certainly it provides endless excuses for doing just that and generally being presumptuous. It must be quite strange to go through life mentally categorising people by pigment and whatever, and then either being fawning and credulous or smugly disdainful based on that and little else. Though it seems to me that the categorising process, the urge to label and then position people in some imagined hierarchy of default virtue, is corrosive to realism and morally blunting.

It’s a worldview that attracts self-flattering mediocrities and then makes them absurd.

Ten

Anyone else notice how "feminism" does a pretty darn good job ticking so many Cluster B boxes?

I don't know if PD categorizations are a set of natural buckets into which fall behaviors, or if they're pure after-the-fact abstracts for various screwballednesses, but either way they seem to fit...

Captain Nemo

'Social justice' means feeling good about not listening to people based on their sex and race.

Not too long ago, that would have been considered sexism and racism. Now it's considered progressive social justice. No, I can't get my head around it either.

Microbillionaire

Not too long ago, that would have been considered sexism and racism. Now it's considered progressive social justice. No, I can't get my head around it either.

I get the impression that progressivism has very little in the way of fixed content; it's more about distinguishing oneself from hoi polloi. If the masses adopt a progressive opinion, then the progressive must find something new to believe so as not to be mistaken for a commoner.

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