David Thompson
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December 06, 2016

Comments

Jen

Glad you linked the best version. :-)

dicentra

I think this is about the third year running that the song has been accused of date-rape.

In other news, Charles Cooke wins today's Internet:

It seems that “tyrannize” is one of those irregular verbs: *I* engage in the culture war; you undermine democratic norms; he’s ushering in Nazi Germany.
Brendan Nyhan responds.

David

I think this is about the third year running that the song has been accused of date-rape.

Yes, I vaguely recall Laurie Penny banging on about it, ineptly, last year. Maybe it’s a tin-eared feminist holiday tradition.

Horace Dunn

For those interested in this kind of thing, Mark Steyn's essay on the subject is excellent. It seems that Loesser wrote the song as a party piece and performed it with his wife at gatherings for some years before it was properly released to the world. Steyn also touches on the old chestnut about date rape. Sigh.

http://www.steynonline.com/6690/baby-its-cold-outside

Sort-of-Mad Max

Wow, our social justice wangers really have some super bandwidth; fighting Dreamsicle Hitler and the Fourth Reich on one hand, and scrutinizing old tunes for random -isms on the other.

Or, they're just all-purpose one-size-fits-all jerks about everything.

It's one or the other.

Hmmmmmm.

R. Sherman

Don't get them started on "Winter Wonderland" with its advocacy of the patriarchal marital paradigm:

In the meadow we can build a snowman,
And pretend that he is Parson Brown.
He'll say, "Are you married?" We'll say, "No, man.
But you can do the job when you're in town."

Ted S., Catskill Mtns., NY, USA

In Neptune's Daughter the song is sung twice: once traditionally with Ricardo Montalban and Esther Williams, and the second time with the gender roles reversed by Red Skelton and Betty Garrett.

Sporkatus

Only mostly off-topic: one of Geoduck Moonbat's latest in the Graun is "No country with a McDonald's can remain a democracy".

Well, I mean. People making their own choices is undemocratic, innit?

Hal

"No country with a McDonald's can remain a democracy".

. . . China is a democracy these days?!?!?!

Hal

Oh, all right, let's have a look at the lyrics . . . .

June: I ain’t a fixing to stay
Homer and Jethro: But baby, it’s cold outside
June: I got to get away
H & J: But baby, it’s cold outside

June: This evening has been
H & J: Been hoping that you’d fall in
June: So very nice
H & J: I’ll hold your hands there just like feet

June: Really I’d better scurry
H & J: Have a drink what’s your hurry
June: Maybe just a half a jug more
H & J: Put some Eddie Arnold records on while I pour

June: The neighbors might think
H & J: But baby, it’s bad out there
June: Say, what’s in this here drink
H & J: That ain’t sarsaparilly there

June: I wish I knew how
H & J: Your eyeballs are popping right now
June: To break the spell
H & J: I’ll take your hair, your hat looks swell

June: I ought to say no, no, no, sir
H & J: Mind if we move in closer
June: At least I’m putting up a good fight
H & J: Boy, this black eye sure is a sight

June: Sister will be suspicious
H & J: Gosh, your lips looks like pedals

June: Petals?

Homer: Yeah, bicycle pedals.

June: I really can’t stay
H & J: Your antifreeze won’t hold out there
All: Aww, but it’s cold outside

What?

Hopp Singg

There's a reason the Saudis give so much baksheesh to American universities, and it ain't to promote enlightenment values:

http://www.steynonline.com/6690/baby-its-cold-outside

No, the throbbing pulsating sewer of sin was Greeley, Colorado, in 1949. As it happens, Greeley, Colorado, in 1949 was a dry town. The dance was a church social. And the feverish music was "Baby, It's Cold Outside," as introduced by Esther Williams in "Neptune's Daughter." Revolted by the experience, Sayyid Qutb decided that America (and modernity in general) was an abomination, returned to Egypt, became the leading intellectual muscle in the Muslim Brotherhood, and set off a chain that led from Qutb to Zawahiri to bin Laden to the Hindu Kush to the Balkans to 9/11 to the brief Muslim Brotherhood takeover of Egypt to the Islamic State marching across Syria and Iraq.

Times are tough; they want their money's worth.

Hal

. . . Islamic State marching across Syria and Iraq.

Go Team! Go Team!! Ra! Ra! Ra!---Err, oh, wait. While the cheerleaders would be male imams, Ra is a classical Egyptian god, isn't he, so that wouldn't work . . .

Quite definitely really, given "Islamic State" being soooo bloody obviously a name for a cozy, prosaic, football team is why, really, Daesh is Daesh.

Hopp Singg

I presumes there were already lyrics for the humorless feministas out there, kinda like a Trigglypuff version.

Ah yes, here it is:

I really can't stay (oh baby, you're outta here)
I've got to go away (as fast as you can, my dear)

This evening has been (been hoping you'd lost some weight)
So very nice (one look, I cried, and knew my fate)

My mothers will start to worry (say, why do your arms look so furry)
My cats, they will be pacing the floor (I only hope you fit through the door)

So really I'd better scurry (before my eyeballs turn into slurry)
But maybe just a dozen drinks more (I'll put you outside if you snore)

The neighbors might think (their cooking smells dead down there)
Say what's in this drink? (your moustache shed hair down there)

I wish I knew how (your double chin's flopping now)
To break this spell (perhaps I'll throw you down the well)

I ought to say, no, no, no sir (I'll scream if you get any closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (my pistol is right by my side)

I really can't stay (you couldda just strolled out)
But baby, it's cold outside

I simply must go (the exit is marked so clear)
The answer is no (oh baby, are you still here)

Your welcome has been (I can't believe you slopped in)
So nice and warm (next time I'll hide out in a dorm)

My sister will be suspicious (oh why can't my life be fictitious)
My brother will be there at the door (to protect his wife and family I'm sure)

My maiden aunts mind is vicious (maybe her genes are pernicious)
But maybe just a cigarette more (you'll have to buy a pack at the store)

I've gotta get home(oh life is breeze out there)
Say lend me a coat(it's all guarantees out there)

You've really been grand (I chill at what you have planned)
But don't you see? (how can you do this thing to me?)

There's bound to be talk tomorrow (think of my lifelong sorrow)
At least there will be plenty implied (if you got pnuemonia and died)

I really can't stay (so don't be a holdout)
Baby, it's cold
Baby, it's cold outside

Farnsworth M. Muldoon

"No country with a McDonald's can remain a democracy".

Interesting notion. McDonalds on Russia predated the break up of the Soviet Union, so it should be interesting to see what happens now that they are in Vietnam.

Fay

Oh ffffuk, what are they going to say when they hear Mike Sarne and Wendy Richards.

Come Outside...

Fay

Tried to embed that video, let's try this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aMIAiseHP4

Darleen

First he ruined their dating, now he's come to ruin their hair

For the past 20 years, Julianna Evans, the director of marketing for the Lumberyard, a contemporary performing-arts company based in New York City, has had the same flowing brown locks. Her stylist in her hometown of Washington, D.C., has been trimming her hair every 12 months for as long as she can remember, and always colors it the same medium-brown shade. Then came the November 8 election upset, and Evans fell into a downward spiral. “I cried for three days,” the Atlanta native, 45, recalls. “I felt like it was the worst thing, politically, that ever happened in my lifetime. It was catastrophic.” By Friday she noticed grays growing in, so she put on her big-girl panties and dragged herself to the drugstore. “Literally without thinking, I grabbed the Natural Black box by Garnier,” she says. “I was like, f** it! The election deadened my soul. I think I wanted to do something defiant to feel stronger.”

That sense of malaise is spreading across D.C.

David

From the Huffington Post piece:

The duo, singer-songwriters Lydia Liza and Josiah Lemanski, told CNN that they felt that the original song was “aggressive and inappropriate,” arguing that the listener never finds out what happens to the woman in the song. “You never figure out if she gets to go home.” “You never figure out if there was something in her drink. It just leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth,” said Liza.

You’d think that self-styled singer-songwriters would be able to deduce things from lyrics, arrangement and intonation. And it’s interesting how the rather sour feminist interpretation, wheeled out every year, assumes that the woman in the song is somehow passive and a victim, rather than an equal and willing participant.

Darleen

BTW

I've always thought of this song as the lyrical equivalent of the tango ... an intricate dance where each partner consents to play a part - in this, of romance & seduction. The song is classic call and response and the lyrics are clever without being self-consciously so.

Now, growing up when actual dating was still a thing, there were just expected steps (dance!).

I do know that if I had been having a wonderful time, but needed to bring the evening to a [reluctant] end then a response to my "I think it's time I go" would be his "Ok. Whatever. See you later." I'd be taken aback, and maybe a little hurt.

David

I’ve always thought of this song as the lyrical equivalent of the tango... an intricate dance where each partner consents to play a part

Yes, absolutely. To my ear, and plenty of others, the woman is far from passive and is listing the customary reasons for leaving, almost all of which are external social pressures and proprieties – gossipy neighbours, maiden aunts with vicious minds – while very much wanting to stay. The crude feminist reading of the song is of him trying to coerce her. It’s actually about both of them, together, very knowingly, pushing against the social conventions of the time. Which is probably why the song was once considered somewhat risqué.

JuliaM

Well, it's long past time 'In The Summertime' by Mungo Jerry was purged of its reference to drinking and driving.

Hurrah for the new Popular Song Revisionism Movement!

David

From the related CNN article, where the point of the song is spectacularly missed:

The song’s seeming disregard for the woman’s desire to leave never sat well with Lemanski or Liza.

Somewhere, Mr and Mrs Loesser are rolling their eyes in unison.

David

Ah, here we go. Laurie Penny also missing the point:

Feminism really does seem to bleach away any trace of subtlety.

Charlie Suet

I think that these sorts of people would always tell you that the author is dead - so what Loesser and his wife thought the song meant is irrelevant.

Fine. So the meaning of the song is down to the listener. But that implies that no one interpretation of the song (within reason) is better than another. If feminists seriously want to think that the song is about rape then they are welcome to that interpretation. An honest application of this methodology would require them to accept that a more innocent interpretation is just as reasonable, though.

As a stroll through David's greatest hits would tell you, however, modern feminism isn't about honesty or equality. It's about bullying people into doing what you want because you're "woke" or because you've assigned yourself permanent victim status.

We saw the same thing with the song Blurred Lines. The writers of the song said what they thought it was about. Most listeners seem to have agreed, if they thought about it at all. But the cry-bullies in the Student Unions knew better and banned it, an authoritarian act which they risibly called "a debate" on its meaning.

Joan

The crude feminist reading of the song is of him trying to coerce her. It’s actually about both of them, together, very knowingly, pushing against the social conventions of the time.

That. And a great tune, btw.

David

That.

You’ve got to marvel at how the feminist line is not only tin-eared and wrong but actually an inversion of the songwriters’ intent.

The song isn’t about ignoring or overriding the woman’s preferences, quite the opposite. Throughout the song, they’re both thinking of ways to delay her departure. Half a drink, another cigarette. And despite the woman running through the list of obstacles to her passion, and saying that she “ought to say no,” because social convention expects her to forego her own preferences, the song concludes with the woman deciding that she’s “gonna say” that she tried to go home but was thwarted by the blizzard. The two of them then agree, in unison and in harmony, that the weather outside really is terrible. And therefore, presumably…

Another parsing of the song is available here.

Steve 2 - A Touch of Stevil

Hullo David,

I agree that Christmas is problematic and Christmas songs even more so.

I SAW MOMMY KISSING SANTA CLAUS - like, I can't even? Did Santa Claus even ask for her consent? It's not expressly affirmed in the song, so we know he didn't! He's basically some sort of flying, festive, sex offender.

MARY'S BOY CHILD - I'm literally shaking when I hear this song, and that's *not* OK. How dare Boney M. assume that child's gender???!? It's 2016!

LAST CHRISTMAS - Ugh. George Michael's dirge to the unequal distribution of unpaid emotional labour is sort of on point but totally destroyed by him being an entitled white male. So gross! The very next day, she gave it away? I hope she filled her CHRISTMASSY MALE TEARS mug that day!

WHITE CHRISTMAS - Wow. Just wow. I am soooo fucking triggered right now.

David

George Michael’s dirge to the unequal distribution of unpaid emotional labour

Heh.

Hal

Ah, here we go. Laurie Penny also missing the point:

I wanna see 'er analysis of a later jolly festive tune.

No doubt there will be claims of having a Blue Christmas . . .

Hal

I agree that Christmas is problematic and Christmas songs even more so.

The Little Drummer Boy.

---Albeit I do have a fondness for the Bowie and Crosby version . . .

PiperPaul

"growing up when actual dating was still a thing"

Now, "dating" is all "Drop your panties Sir William, I cannot wait till lunchtime.", I presume.

David

growing up when actual dating was still a thing

I gather the young now just Snapchat their genitals to each other.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

I gather the young now just Snapchat their genitals to each other.

Well, it is an STD prevention technique.

Nemo

Well, it is an STD prevention technique.

Indeed: Snapchat doesn't work on Standard Trunk Dialling.

Horace Dunn

The same situation from the distaff side has also been addressed.

Dory Previn's take on it is poignant and a little disturbing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6fdki12Jew

Lionel Ebb

It's okay, folks - it appears they've found a cure for feminism right here in London! http://bit.ly/2gBMqzS

Lionel Ebb

From a lyrical analysis standpoint, I think we can all be grateful that almost nothing rhymes with 'Rohypnol'or poor old Loesser might not have been able to resist...

Farnsworth M Muldoon

I think we can all be grateful that almost nothing rhymes with 'Rohypnol'...


Baby it's cold as Montreal,

---I have to go, so please don't start to bawl

The temperature out surely is bugger all,

---I really have to beat feat down the hall

But it is warm in here as it is in Senegal,

---Just give me my keys to my Vanwall

Please one more drink, now be a doll,

---OK, but just one, a small highball

I know you'll stay now, don't mind the rohypnol...

Hal

Ow. Ow again.

As an example of "cultural" scale totally missing a point, I have seen headlines commenting white people are 'treating protest like Burning Man'(1)

And, as I'm doing a mid morning skim through local headlines, Police: Missing Santa Rosa boy, 13, wanted to live among homeless

Live Among Homeless.

Homeless: Being in a condition of having no home. Being in a condition of just not even having the resources to want to be a bloody entertainment venue, let alone actually being one.

The boy, 13, has evidently been living among, listening to, and learning from hipsters.

(1)---Tactical observation: I have only generally skimmed over the pipeline and protest related headlines, at this moment remember assorted conflicting headline observations such as route selection being shortest line vs Oh, route it through the Indian area vs the Army Corps of Engineers recently stating No vs one comment I've seen claiming that the current pipeline is simply following an already in place LNG pipeline vs a couple of articles citing local Indians being pissed off about the protests, especially with pointed questioning expectations of what will those protesters do when our Dakota winter arrives... but I digress . . .

Hal

Baby it's cold as Montreal,

The temperature out surely is bugger all,

But it is warm in here as it is in Senegal,

The tune don't have to be clever,
And it don't matter if you put a coupla extra syllables into a line.
---Tom Lehrer, The Folk Song Army

FlynPigRanch

Baby its Cold Outthighs... Sorry wrong thread.

Farnsworth M. Muldoon

And it don't matter if you put a coupla extra syllables into a line.

It all fits, I transposed the whole thing into a bebop harmonic minor - Bb, for the horns, of course.

WTP

I gotta admit, it has always creeped me out the way Berl Ives, who creeps me out simply by being Berl Ives, sings with creepy enthusiasm, "Kiss her once for me" in Have a Holly, Jolly Christmas.

dan

I gather the young now just Snapchat their genitals to each other.

Teenage pregnancy has halved in two decades and continues to fall significantly so yes, it is quite possible that kids are texting or sexting on a saturday night in relative safety.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/18/how-uk-halved-teenage-pregnancy-rate-public-health-strategy

dicentra

God Almighty, this is not a parody site: https://www.safetypinbox.com/

dicentra

I think that these sorts of people would always tell you that the author is dead - so what Loesser and his wife thought the song meant is irrelevant.

Fine. So the meaning of the song is down to the listener. But that implies that no one interpretation of the song (within reason) is better than another.

If Jeff Goldstein were here, he'd have something to say about that.

If proteinwisdom.com were free from its spell, I'd even link to what he'd say.

Which is, in essence, that the whole project of declaring the author dead (and his intent irrelevant) is to rig the game so that the loudest and meanest "interpretative community" gets to say what's what and to enforce that meaning at the point of a barrel using Internet wilding or Othering or whatever cudgel they have at hand to destroy their enemies.

And by enemies I mean you.

David

God Almighty, this is not a parody site

Wow.

I think that one deserves a post of its own.

Nikw211

Wow

One of the two organiser's of that Safety Pin Box, Leslie Mac, has a website offering the following (my italics):

    EVENT/DIRECT ACTION COORDINATOR

    Experienced in both event planning and direct action organization, I bring a varied wealth of experience to make your social justice focused event a success.

Sounds like a dinner party, not a revolution. Also this (my italics):

    WORKSHOP FACILITATOR

    I offer a wide range of presentations and workshops aimed at real world application of social justice strategy & change. I am able to tailor presentations to your specific needs and create a custom workshops [sic] to suit your audience.

For a social justice revolutionary, the corporate-brochure speak seems rather anomalous.

David

For a social justice revolutionary, the corporate-brochure speak seems rather anomalous.

Might be worth pasting that over in the dedicated thread.

Tim Newman

Tactical observation: I have only generally skimmed over the pipeline and protest related headlines, at this moment remember assorted conflicting headline observations such as route selection being shortest line vs Oh, route it through the Indian area vs the Army Corps of Engineers recently stating No vs one comment I've seen claiming that the current pipeline is simply following an already in place LNG pipeline vs a couple of articles citing local Indians being pissed off about the protests, especially with pointed questioning expectations of what will those protesters do when our Dakota winter arrives.

I don't know much about the pipeline either, but there is definitely not an LNG pipeline already in place. A natural gas pipeline maybe, but definitely not LNG.

Silver Whistle

If Jeff Goldstein were here, he'd have something to say about that.

If proteinwisdom.com were free from its spell, I'd even link to what he'd say.

You can get the next best thing here

David

It seems the umbrage about Baby, It’s Cold Outside is shifting ground, slightly. When the umbrage-takers are challenged and can’t credibly sustain the claim that the song is an ode to date rape, the song is nonetheless still deemed “terrible” and “an example of outdated rape culture.” Supposedly, this is because it “reinforces the outdated notion that women who say no mean ‘convince me, so I can say I put up a fight.’” Apparently, a song that is all about female agency and listening to her signals is actually about “a narrative that says men can’t listen to women saying no because we might actually mean yes.”

And dissent is not welcome.

Nikw211

From Alexandra Erin's Tweet:

    And here's the thing: I think they're correct, factually.

And in what other way can one be correct, exactly? Terrifying, the way some people's minds work ...

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