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August 31, 2018

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John D

I'll watch that later. I think I'll need a drink afterwards.

David

I think I’ll need a drink afterwards.

It’s not an entirely encouraging experience, so yes, a drink may be in order. Though as Mr Murray surveys the rot, the incompetence, and the endless polite evasions, there are some memorable lines.

Simen Thoresen

Thank you for the thread, David.

Mr Murray is of course most widely known for his new book - The strange Death of Europe, which I am sure our host would appreciate that you buy through his affiliate link :)

This talk, just like the book leaves me with the feeling that what is being discussed is actually important, and that it is weird that no-one seems to care very much.

...and that is of course a bit of the point Murray is making. After seeing our various intellectual gods fail, one after the other, we've mostly settled down to just enjoy ourselves as long as it lasts. If there is nothing of actual importance or value, why not just have a drink?

-S

David

the feeling that what is being discussed is actually important, and that it is weird that no-one seems to care very much.

Well, as Murray notes, the fact that it’s important is pretty much why it’s so often avoided, and in such bizarrely contorted ways. It’s quite strange to inhabit a culture where pathological denial is becoming a norm.

David

I find myself wondering exactly how far things will go along this path, with everyday reality increasingly at odds with our menu of polite fictions, often in ways that are vividly symbolic, before something breaks, perhaps quite suddenly.

Tom

It’s quite strange to inhabit a culture where pathological denial is becoming a norm.

Yes, watching a civilization wilfully commit suicide would not have been at the top of my list of things to do 40-odd years ago when I was a teen but here we are.

Pogonip

I don’t have any opinion as to why liberal women are more likely to report sexual harassment...

https://mobile.twitter.com/ZachG932/status/1035393335085735936

...but I sure hope this guy has plenty of money socked away, as he will soon be unemployed.

Tom

...before something breaks, perhaps quite suddenly.

There is an awful lot of ruin in a nation, according to Adam Smith. When cities like San Francisco have apps to help you avoid human feces in the street you realize that humans can and will adapt to almost any situation. This, in the case of feces strewn streets, is not actually a good thing.

Hector Drummond, Vile Novelist

The leftists' aim is to keep a lid on all this stuff until it's too late for anyone to stop it.

I have kids, so I'll be damned if I just drink and watch the Western world go to ruin.

Theophrastus

It’s an odd thing to do, societally and culturally - to, for instance, without any mandate from the general public, decide to become something totally different… It’s an odd thing - for a society to effectively decide to abolish what it has been hitherto, and to become something totally new.

Aka the Great Liberal Death-wish...

David

Yes, watching a civilization wilfully commit suicide would not have been at the top of my list of things to do 40-odd years ago when I was a teen but here we are.

As Murray says, “We, the public, have discovered we’ve become an awful disappointment to our politicians.” And so, for many of our elected representatives and much of the media, the public isn’t something to be understood and heeded, but rather, something to be defeated.

R. Sherman

The idea that nobody thought any of this through is an extraordinary admission…

I'm not sure the "nobody thought this through" bit is accurate. Certainly, there are the naïve "peace & love" useful idiots out there like this doofus who wound up protecting a serial abuser of women and children. These are not the people I worry about as they are just followers of what/whomever is fashionable at the moment.

Rather, if you subscribe to a philosophy, the tenets of which include the belief that Western Civilization is the source of all Evil in recorded history and thus, Western societies must engage in constant acts of penance and reorder themselves, what would you do differently?

This is knowing and deliberate. The perpetrators are soi-disant high priests leading the rest of us poor schmucks to salvation.

David

The perpetrators are soi-disant high priests leading the rest of us poor schmucks to salvation.

And generally doing so from a safe distance, such that the less happy effects of their piety will be unlikely to materialise, for them.

Captain Nemo

Our betters do rather seem to have taken to heart the Bertholt Brecht line about "dissolving the electorate and replacing them with another". I just wonder how well they think it will end.

Jen

Yes, watching a civilization wilfully commit suicide would not have been at the top of my list of things to do 40-odd years ago when I was a teen but here we are.

https://twitter.com/neontaster/status/1035376806340255745

Tom

@Jen

I saw that yesterday and was shocked into a brief catatonic state for about 30 seconds due to the extreme level of stupidity exhibited. Luckily I was seated at the time.

"I don't think that Neil viewed himself as an American hero" - Ryan Gosling, Canadian mouth breather. Where is Buzz Aldrin and his Mighty Fist of Justice™ when you need him?

Farnsworth M Muldoon

"I don't think that Neil viewed himself as an American hero"

As genuine heroes tend not to view themselves as heroes, that may be correct, but that he didn't view himself as an American is absurd.

"I think this was widely regarded in the end as a human achievement [and] that's how we chose to view it," Gosling said.

His first mistake was thinking he could think, his second, thinking what he thought he thinks equals "widely regarded". Whereas it is true that the achievement was accomplished by humans*, even von Braun and the rest of the Peenemünde crew were American citizens.

*(Ham the space chimp was unavailable for comment.)

David

As genuine heroes tend not to view themselves as heroes, that may be correct, but that he didn’t view himself as an American is absurd.

Yes, it’s a sly conflation.

R. Sherman

I love Murray's phrase, "parochial internationalism." It's almost a throw-away line, but there's a lot of insight in those two words and they're applicable (with modification) to the major problem(s) we have today: A distant self-selected "elite" which insulates itself from the effects of its ruminations. A fancy term for "bubbles," perhaps, but nonetheless true.

R. Sherman

And then there's this bit from Murray: "If you report the facts, you are causing the facts." I trust readers of these pages do not need examples of the accuracy of Murray's observation.

(Sorry for the running commentary of the video. I'm enjoying it in 10 minute increments.)

David

Sorry for the running commentary of the video. I’m enjoying it in 10 minute increments.

Go for it.

Daniel Ream

It is not possible to overestimate the sheer ignorance (and smugness) Canadians have about American culture.

R. Sherman

One more, then I'll quit: Murray at about 1:50ish on Patriotism.

Acknowledging what we've inherited, we should approach it--"it" being the entire bundle of things encompassing Western Civilization, with the realization that such things have not been replicated in other places--with a sense of gratitude.

Those last five words do a lot of heavy lifting in this day and age. Given the Left's constant attempts to transform "gratitude" into "privilege" with some sort of guilt attached thereto, it is worthwhile, I think to get back to the old protestant hymn, "Count your many blessings. Count them one by one."

MikeG81

"It is not possible to overestimate the sheer ignorance (and smugness) Canadians have about American culture."

Canadians are only "allowed" to hate Americans. Everyone else must be accepted.

It's in our laws somewhere or something...

David

we should approach it… with a sense of gratitude.

Gratitude, like stoicism and self-possession, seems terribly old-fashioned. I don’t see much of it about.

CJinPA

The leftists' aim is to keep a lid on all this stuff until it's too late for anyone to stop it.

This has been the plan indeed. It has worked until now, though they MAY have begun to celebrate a bit too early. Trump and some Europeans are beginning to address it, which forces the Left to acknowledge what they're doing. I worry about who comes after Trump, who could be gone in two years, or sooner if the Left prevails. Is there anyone else with the guts to pick up the torch in the U.S.? I hope Europe continues waking up.

In Poland, Trump said, "The fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive." I think that was the most important speech of our lifetimes.

WTP

Acknowledging what we've inherited, we should approach it--"it" being the entire bundle of things encompassing Western Civilization, with the realization that such things have not been replicated in other places--with a sense of gratitude.

You know, as much as I agree with that being said...in the context of patriotism, it's an indication of how far we've fallen that even someone who doesn't view patriotism as an inherently bad thing could not end that sentence with --with a sense of pride. Granted, gratitude does apply and is important but imagine if he said "pride", well damn near anything he said before or after that moment would have been discarded as absolute proof of it being the rantings of a fascist. Even though he was speaking of Western Civilization in general. He could even have broadened it to apply to "open and representative societies" and the usual suspects would still rant.

In Poland, Trump said, "The fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive." I think that was the most important speech of our lifetimes.

And I believe this next mid-term may turn out to be the most important election in our lifetimes.

Hector Drummond, Vile Novelist

>This is knowing and deliberate.

R. Sherman is right.

>It has worked until now, though they MAY have begun to celebrate a bit too early.

Hopefully true, CJinPA.

fnord

And I believe this next mid-term may turn out to be the most important election in our lifetimes.

=======
And so was 2016. We are in a very unhealthy place when every election is ' the most important of our lifetimes'.

Daniel Ream

And I believe this next mid-term may turn out to be the most important election in our lifetimes.

I don't consider myself a particular expert on the American zeitgeist[1], but I'm starting to sincerely believe that if Trump is impeached the US will descend into a shooting war.


[1] I know, I'm a bad Canadian

pst314

This is knowing and deliberate.

This. A thousand times this.
The Left has been very open at times about its desire to replace the populations and cultures of the West.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

Someone with authority weighs in on the Neil Armstrong issue.

PiperPaul


.

Adam

Where's the "like" button for that meme? I need a "like" button.

WTP

And so was 2016.

I would say 2016 was a watershed but if HRC had won we would have stumbled along just as under the O and the chance to turn things around would have slipped away much more slowly. I fear this next election more because a loss would mean a severe reversal in momentum that I don't see anyone on the horizon, GOP or otherwise, being able to re-reverse. The odds of finding someone as palatably unpalatable as the T'ster are very low. I see no one capable of doing what he has done. Not that I think it would be all that hard to do what he has done and probably do it even better, but finding someone with thick enough skin (ironic, yes) and enough of a hard-azz to push through the BS to get anything done, AND be willing to actually put it all on the line, pretty much alone, risking all they have life, liberty, and property (because the stakes would at that point be that much higher) to be very unlikely.

Pogonip

As far as I can tell—and I admit to skimming the daily “OMG TRUMP!!!!!!!” hysteria, the only crime of which Trump can definitely be said to be guilty is first-degree victory against Hillary, rudely shoving her out of the way when it was her turn.

Sam
...if Trump is impeached the US will descend into a shooting war

In the event of a modern US civil war, the sounds of gunfire will most certainly be heard. But if you're implying that each side will be armed, you are mistaken.

Acme
The West thinks it has great, powerful armies. Well, it hasn’t. It has no armies at all anymore. For years now, our people have been taught to despise their armies. Every possible way. Take the films, for example. All those films seen by millions and millions, based on massacres long since forgotten, and dug up after a hundred years for the sake of the cause. Blacks, Indians, Arabs, biting the dust, scene after scene. Wars of survival, but changed for the occasion into merciless attempts to impose the white man’s rule. Even though, in the long run, the West lost them all. There weren’t enough flesh and blood soldiers left to hate, so they fell back on phantoms from the past. All you could want, no limit to how many. And what’s more, too dead to protest. Served up for public indictment with no risk at all ... Forget the serious works of art — the fiction, the plays, the music — things aimed at a small intellectual elite. Let’s just talk about the media, so called, and the shameless way certain people, under the guise of freedom, took a tool meant for mass communication, twisted and warped it, and used it to bully the minds of the public. The few clear thinkers left tried to warn us. But we wouldn’t listen. We gave way to one huge masochistic frenzy, dragged from nightmare to nightmare. We never said no. We wanted to show how permissive we could be, despite the foolish risk that, one day, we would have to face everything, all at once, and all alone.

Jean Raspail, Camp of the Saints

Chester Draws

Sorry, but the West does have powerful armies. They're very tech heavy these days, and half the power is in the air, but it's a mistake to think they're gutless.

We are returning somewhat to the era of the 18th Century, when armies were first professionalised, before the French Revolution made citizen armies all the rage. It's about supply (as all real warfare is) and we can't supply large armies of quality at present. Even the infantry blow through vast amounts of tech (AT missiles, radios and computers, specialised ammo), let alone armour and artillery.

In the 1700s the countries of Europe despised their armies. Not the neglect of today, but real hate (forced billeting being the main problem). Finding volunteers was not easy and many resorted to impressing vagrants and minor criminals.

Yet those armies took the field and did the business. Where they met non-professional armies they wiped the floor with them.

When I see kids today selecting the military as an option after school, people tend to think that's a good choice for a rough young man. I never seen a person react with derision. Sure I don't hang out with SJWs, but I don't hang out with conservatives either.

Far from defenceless, Europe is well armed. Size is not a useful measure of military power today.

All the threats to the West are non-military. Indeed internal. Blowing the budget as the US continues to do isn't sensible.

David

A distant self-selected “elite” which insulates itself from the effects of its ruminations.

For many advocates of massive and rapid immigration – including Mr Schama, mentioned here – their views seem informed not so much by some subversive conspiracy as by a narcissistic unrealism. I’m not sure that Mr Schama fully grasps the likely practical consequences of his own vanities, i.e., the degradation of his former home. A home whose culture and history is supposedly important to him. I wouldn’t say that Schama regards that degradation as an objective, but he does seem strangely indifferent to the prospect, the risk, as if it were no longer a priority. Compared with, say, mouthing the views that a person of his status is expected to have.

It is, however, telling that he’s become so vocal in his advocacy of policies that will result in that effect after relocating his family thousands of miles from the country in which those effects will be felt, and more difficult to ignore.

CJinPA

For many advocates of massive and rapid immigration – including Mr Schama, mentioned here – their views seem informed not so much by some subversive conspiracy as by a narcissistic unrealism.

And let's not dismiss a rational desire for career advancement and job security as an incentive for educated people to espouse irrational views. When the New York Times appointed to its editorial board a woman who espoused scathingly racist views, another writer, also an Asian American woman, Julia Carrie Wong, wrote on Twitter about actually landing mainstream writing offers based solely on the outrageous tweets she posted.

And then there is this from The Atlantic:

In some instances, white-bashing can actually serve as a means of ascent, especially for Asian Americans. Embracing the culture of upper-white self-flagellation can spur avowedly enlightened whites to eagerly cheer on their Asian American comrades who show (abstract, faceless, numberless) lower-white people what for. And, simultaneously, it allows Asian Americans who use the discourse to position themselves as ethnic outsiders, including those who are comfortably enmeshed in elite circles.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/the-utility-of-white-bashing/566846/

The "culture of upper-white self-flagellation" or, more commonly, "white guilt," is usually referenced only to mock the notion. Here is a mainstream left-leaning outlet acknowledging it as "a means of ascent."

Espousing anti-Western views is like taking performance enhancing drugs in sports: It's wrong, but doing it is deemed necessary to reach elite status and the money that comes with it.

David

Espousing anti-Western views is like taking performance enhancing drugs in sports: It’s wrong, but doing it is deemed necessary to reach elite status…

Heh. Yes.

By the way, I don’t mean to excuse Mr Schama’s pernicious affectations, but I think there are distinctions that can be made between people like Schama, who for the most part seems woolly, pretentious and hopelessly unrealistic, and, say, Joe Biden, who described white people being reduced to a demographic minority as “not a bad thing” and something to be desired.

As I said at the time, it’s worth trying to picture the Vice Presidents of other nations mouthing the same things about their own populations – South Korea, for instance, or China, or Japan – as if a massive and irreversible demographic transfusion had no practical and cultural consequences, no worrying connotations.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

Sorry, but the West does have powerful armies...Far from defenceless, Europe is well armed.

Define "West" and "well armed", leaving the US out of the equation.

The most capable European military, regardless of country, are their respective special operations forces, regarding the conventional forces, despite having capable personnel, they are hamstrung because of continual cuts which result in degraded readiness and inadequate numbers of personnel and equipment to meet mission, Germany is a case in point. The Royal Navy, in a situation absolutely criminal for an island nation, is down to 20 surface combatants, most of which are frigates, and lacks both adequate defensive capability, as well as power projection capability. The French, a handful of frigates and an aircraft carrier that works sometimes. New Zealand completely gave up on having an air force with any real combat capability.

Size is not a useful measure of military power today.

That is not entirely accurate. Yes, one guy with a nuke is going to be able to take on the entire Mongol Horde, or a Foreign Legion company all of AuntyFa, but in a conventional fight with opposing forces that are similarly equipped and trained, the guy with the most stuff (and best logistic support) wins, assuming there is equal national will.

Regarding the latter, there is at present a large lack of that in the West (to include the left in the US) to address both external threats, as well as the self-generated internal threats as evidenced by the "migrant" mess. Whether that changes, as in the recent case of Italy, remains to be seen.

Blowing the budget as the US continues to do isn't sensible.

Aside from that not actually happening (it is roughly only 30% the amount of what the "mandatory" spending is, 21% overall, 2018), defense of vital global US strategic interests (to include Europe) requires more than a regional force.

Tomas

https://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/7155-the-future-of-racism/page__st__100#entry340452

When we share some article about migrant unemployment on Normiebook, do we actually care about unemployment? Would we be perfectly willing to open our borders if only those migrants were more employed? No, we're making use of a socially safe concern to promote an agenda we may hold for reasons that are still outside the Overton window. Likewise, when Shawn Shitlib shares some screed about Somali rocket scientists, his motives are likely going to be ulterior. He considers the dissolution of homogenous countries to be a moral virtue and an aesthetic pleasure, but that's mostly unfit for Normiebook, so it all plays out as a proxy discussion.

Thus, even if we were able to provide final proof that immigration restriction is compatible with liberalism, I doubt it would have any effect, as Shawn Shitlib's allegiance to immigration comes from his love of frizzy-haired mulattas in IKEA catalogs more than any grand philosophical considerations. You may think I'm being unfair to Shawn here, but think about it for a moment, why is all this material put out by advertising, higher education or HR full of pseudo-religious diversity iconography? Probably because it plays exceedingly well with a certain demographic and doesn't offend others enough to offset the effect. We are way beyond rational considerations here.

CJinPA

I'm just clicking on your Schama link. The fact that he was chosen by the BBC to write and produce a series on the history of Great Britain is quite telling.

David

I’m just clicking on your Schama link.

Careful now. The term rabbit hole has been used by some of the regulars. We once lost Mr Sherman for several days.

CJinPA

Interesting listening to Murray talk about the lack of preparation for the mass influx of foreigners to Europe, and that as the flaws were revealed during moderate migration the decision was made to ramp it up even more. People following this issue wonder "Was this part of a master plan or mere reckless incompetence?"

In the U.S., immigration was shifted from Euro-centric to non-European in 1965. Its proponents insisted it would not fundamentally change the makeup of the nation. When it became clear that it would, rather than scrap the policy they simply switched the assessment of the unintended result from "bad" to "good."

In the U.S., "multiculturalism" was was not a goal established after deliberation, study and debate. It was declared our ideal only after it was inevitable. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was planned from the start. Europe seems like a different case.

Grest talk by Murray. Has anyone ever debated him? Thanks for posting.

David

Can’t talk now – heading out for dinner. Maybe someone else will oblige. :-)

Squires

This is knowing and deliberate.

Something, something, death agonies of the existing societies, then the promised Marxist paradise (to be enjoyed by Marxists only).

See also: They [the Jews] deceived, and Allah deceived, for Allah is the greatest of deceivers.

CJinPA

Can’t talk now – heading out for dinner. Maybe someone else will oblige. :-)

I can't think of any other blogger who would leave such a message. You are too kind, sir. Your work is a tremendous resource.

David

Your work is a tremendous resource.

I’m assuming future generations will build some kind of statue.

Chester Draws

Muldoon: show me an army anywhere that says "it's OK, we have enough money".

People here rail about how bureaucracies have a drive to expand and never have enough. Well, armies are no different. The Soviet generals would have been demanding more, even as it broke them. That's what generals do.

No matter how much you pour into a military, large sections of the population will demand more. The US navy is as powerful as all the other navies of the world put together. With Marines and Air arm better than most of the world's armies too. Yet apparently manages to complain about being underfunded. No amount of money will satisfy them.

Politicians do sometimes cotton on. NZ lost the fighting arm of our Air Force because it is a very expensive luxury. A couple of squadrons of up-to-date jets would be a ridiculous extravagance. They could make it to strafe Sydney, but not make it back. A jet arm couldn't support our army in any realistic way in the Pacific.

Why bother, other than to make the brass proud? So NZ focuses on what it needs, an army that can fight in the Pacific islands. Non-conventionally, because opponents won't be conventional.

Surface naval vessels are floating deathtraps in European waters. They are a waste of money built only to keep admirals in jobs. Submarines, fast attack boats and missiles are the way of the future, if you are interested merely in defence. That the Royal Navy doesn't like it, doesn't make it untrue. But where's the prestige in submarining and torpedo boats?

I'm fully on board with nations being able to defend themselves. I'm no pacifist and I accept others will take advantage of weakness.

But the "underfunded" line is getting old. Admirals want big ships. Generals want divisions. COEs the world over are like that -- prestige drives them. That doesn't make them right.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

So NZ focuses on what it needs, an army that can fight in the Pacific islands. Non-conventionally, because opponents won't be conventional.

We'll ignore China, but unconventional forces rely on both conventional and unconventional air support, and even F-15s can do CAS missions. An A-10 or AH-64 is better, but I digress. Short of shoving something out the back of a C-130, the only thing New Zealand has capable of shooting back is maybe the P-3s if they are equipped with the requisite hardpoints for ordnance, so I guess the Kiwis are SOL for that support unless they get some help from the Australians, PACAF, or the 7th Fleet.

If we want to talk about just the land force, there is only one brigade (BDE+ if we throw in all the reserves) worth, total, shooters and support pukes, so they are basically taking the Costa Rica approach of hoping nothing really untoward happens, and as we all know, nothing could possibly go wrong in the region what with China and the worlds largest concentration of Moslems in your post code.

You appear to like subs, OK, but the Royal Navy only has 10, and even assuming the impossibly of all 10 being FMC and at sea 100% of the time, that is still not a whole lot of defense just for the North Atlantic.

"Underfunded" may be getting old, but that does not make it untrue, unless one thinks that, as pre WWII, training using wooden machine guns, (or, during the halcyon days of Jimmy Carter putting a .22 rifle barrel in a TOW missile tube), is a swell idea for when the balloon goes up, or that aircraft designed and put into service 60 years ago can fly indefinitely, or ships don't need refurbishment and upgrading, etc., etc.

Hal

. . . but unconventional forces rely on both conventional and unconventional air support,

Hmmm. Considering variations . . . .

The Swiss Air Force was unable to respond to the Ethiopian Airlines ET702 hijacking in 2014 because it occurred outside routine operating hours.

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