David Thompson
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November 03, 2008

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Anthony

He's a business owner?

He should lay off those that are least useful to his business. If his business requires intellect, then the Palin supporters should go first.

georges

As a business owner, his biggest problem will presumably be the financial meltdown, the collapse of credit, and the consequent slump in demand - the recession that's happening right now, under George W. Bush. The fact that, in the quote you give, he makes no mention of this, seems weird. Kind of like Mrs Lincoln saying she's sad and depressed because the play she went to last night was really really bad, and not mentioning her husband being assassinated there.

David

With regard to the actual point that I think is being made, perhaps we should assume that the business owner has calculated the cost to him of Obama’s policies *above and beyond* other pre-existing variables.

TDK

I don't think it's fair because the assumption is that McCain would be different. he too supports the base line assumption that government knows how to spend peoples money better than the people. He too supports the green shift. The difference between the idiocies is degree.

Georges has a point. The era of George Bush saw a massive increase in government spending and the US deficit. To take an example the No Child Left behind program has displayed scant return, yet no one is prepared to say this has been a failure. The glaring hole is that there is no electable candidate offering to reduce government.

I'm interested in the argument of Anthony. Obama claims he will create thousands of green jobs. I'm sure I don't need to point you to the Broken Windows Fallacy to show what a stupid idea that is. No one, not even the sensible left, denies that jobs must be lost as a result of forcing the economy to shift to non carbon energy sources. Logic dictates that if it made economic sense to make such a move then the free market would have done so already. Logic also means dictates that forcing people to adopt less efficient means will mean lower economic activity and hence less jobs net. This is first year economics. Yet no one questions him on it. Is that being stupid?

David

As I read it, the point being made is about personal consequences. Does an employee who signaled his voting for Policy X have some measure of responsibility for how that policy plays out in their own workplace? If an employee wants an eco-sensitive redistributive policy of some kind, shouldn’t he or she be prepared for what that may entail, personally?

I’m not advocating a particular position; I just think it’s interesting as a question. It’s a theoretical game, I know, but not entirely trivial.

georges

David

We could go back and forth on this issue. But there's one thing you have to bear in mind. The only way to stop Obama becoming President is to make John McCain President, and Sarah Palin Vice-President. Those are the only choices available.

I recently heard Christopher Hitchens explain why he's now supporting Obama. Throughout his political life he'd been told it's policies that matter, not personalities. He thinks it's not true. Leaders often make 180 degree changes of policy if the circumstances demand it. The best are quite adept at it. But if there's some fundamental character flaw, that's going to condemn their rule.

If I was an American Republican - which I'm not - I would face a very difficult choice. The McCain-Palin ticket looks absolutely terrible - a man who appears senile, and who might well die in office, and a woman who seems completely unfit for national government. Not the A-team you want trying to deal with the crises facing America and the World right now. No doubt Obama has character flaws aplenty too. But, to my outsider's eye, he at least has some semblance of Presidential gravitas.

It reminds me of 1997 in the UK. Back then, even my Tory-supporting friends thought the Conservatives needed to lose, if only to sort themselves out.

AntiCitizenOne

Obama is Blair 2.

I'd short the dollar into oblivion if Zero is elected.

georges

A fall in the value of the dollar against the yuan would be very helpful to the US.

Isn't it bizarre that the supposedly hyper-right wing Bush has basically mortgaged America to Communist China and the Islamist Saudis?

erm

there's only one way to sort this out....

http://tinyurl.com/6egpa6

sk60

"It's a sort of mouth-and-trousers thing."

Heh.

Anthony

Does an employee who signaled his voting for Policy X have some measure of responsibility for how that policy plays out in their own workplace?

Yes, but not to the extent they should be singled out by the employee for that voting preference.

For example, I'm sure there are government employed people who vote for the Conservatives, that doesn't mean they should be the first cleared out if the Conservatives decided to massively cut-back on state employees.

David

Anthony,

“Yes, but not to the extent they should be singled out by the employee for that voting preference.”

Well, for the sake of argument, I suppose one could frame it differently. For instance, one might suggest that the person who declared their vote for the policy that led to job cuts might volunteer to be first in line to go, all other things being equal.

Again, I’m not advocating a position; I’m just following the idea.

John Gillmartin

Fair? No, it's consequence! Something like a law of physics, isn't it? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

One thing I've noticed among people today is the lack critical thinking skills. Not only do they not understand issues (as the comments above confirm) but they aren't prepared to believe the butterfly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect) may land on them.

el gordo

Georges, and how has Blair worked out for you? A bloated bureaucracy, rampant political correctness, rising crime, surveillance cameras on every corner, an awful health care system, forced proletarisation, resentful immigrants... and your "sorted out" conservatives will do exactly nothing about this. There must be a reason why Britons are leaving the country at an alarming rate.


We know exactly so many among the elites hate Palin: they are anti-religious bigots. Hitchens certainly is. I say this as a lifelong atheist.

To go on hatin´ Palin you have to completely ignore what she actually did as a politican in Alaska. You have to rely on a kind of cultural hatred which is deeply intolerant.

On the other hand, to vote for Obama is an act of faith. Not only that he presents himself as a messianic "transformational" leader although that is bizarre enough. You have to ignore what we already know about him and the extent of what we don´t know. We know from his own unguarded moments and actions that he has contempt for the country, the constitution, capitalism, the middle class, campaign finance laws. The last one alone should give anyone pause. The left has always been open about the need to subvert these institutions to get over the quaint notion of limited government.

If that is what the militantly secular buy into, then their secularism is fundamentally superstitious, irrational and not worth a bucket of warm spit. They should get over themselves and look at who the real radical in this race is. Openly religious leaders don´t scare me. Such people after all built our civilization.

boqueronman

I basically agree with Georges on this one. The U.S. have a [now] hard left party called Democrats and a "We're not so far Left so vote for us" party called Republicans. Recent studies I have seen of the Dependency Index, produced annually by the Heritage Foundation, shows increasing resort to government services in housing, food, health and supplementary income grew enormously during the two Bush administrations. Further, another study shows government regulatory agencies power and resources grew enormously under Bush II. Don't even start on spending!

No, the U.S. now is under the control of a two party political machine whose wheels are grinding the tax payers, i.e. productive citizens and their voluntary organization (read businesses), into the ground. A short, because that's all it takes, read of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, along with a review of the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers, would quickly show that we now have an unconstitutional government, performing functions it was never given.

For this reason, for the first time since 1968, I, as a U.S. voter, am voting on my principles for a third party, the Constitution Party. At least for the next four years, no matter who actually wins I can't share the blame. Those taxpayer/voters who wish to return the government to strictly limited functions, free markets and low taxes must accept the fact that that position is closer to extinction than ever before in the U.S., the only place on earth where it still has ANY intellectual life. (And please, the last thing we have in the U.S. now is a "free market."

P.S. If this "business owner" is smart he will focus on retaining those employees who are skilled, conscientious, and productive to help him carry the company through the tough times ahead. As long as these Obama supporters do not bring politics into his work place, he must also keep it out. Otherwise he will be guilty of poisoning the workplace and any decrease in productivity resulting from it, not his staff.

clazy

It's an oddly anti-capitalistic position that this supposed small business owner is taking. It would make more sense to cull the least useful and let everyone know why; maybe everyone will change their vote next time. Focusing on the Obama voters is juvenile. It's also simpleminded to imagine that the only people voting for Obama are the ones with bumper stickers.

Steve in San Diego

Has anyone here ever heard of the Community Reinvestment Act?

Has anyone here seen the online video of how Republicans fared before a Democrat-packed House committee when they attempted to increase regulation and oversight of Fannie Mae a few years ago?

Drooling moron

@ Steve in San Diego -

No i haven't but I still say Bush is responsible for the financial crisis durrr hurrrr dumb bush

R. Sherman

I am an American small business owner, and I have calculated to the penny how much Senator Obama's policies, at least the ones to which he admits, will cost me. These costs are hidden unfortunately, but will be passed on to either my clients or my employees, for the simple reason that I will not solely bear the burden of 60-70 work weeks in order to support someone's grand social agenda. If we're tossing "fairness" into the mix, then the people who want it should pay the bill. The problem is that "fairness" for most people involves spending other people's money.

Regards.

AntiCitizenOne

My advice to the business person, concentrate on the business, and not on the private politics of the staff (as long as they reciprocate by keep their own politics out of your business).

Laban Tall

el gordo :

"You have to ignore what we already know about him and the extent of what we don´t know. We know from his own unguarded moments and actions that he has contempt for the country, the constitution, capitalism, the middle class, campaign finance laws"

I knew zilch about Obama yesterday morning. I've just spent the last two eveings reading Steve Sailer's new Obama biography which is available for a short period on the web as a free pdf. Fascinating stuff - well worth a read.

Luther McLeod

I only have one small and trivial comment to make. As a former Marine who spent some time in SVN... I would place my chips (and have) with Sarah Palin. She would protect my six. Though her death might result. Won't even mention McCain in that respect, not needed.

Obama/Biden... I'd expect a knife in the back if it would save their asses. They would find a way to excuse it.

A very limited viewpoint perhaps... amid all the chatter. But to my mind it shows something about character. Something important, and non-trivial.

Wonder Woman

"As I read it, the point being made is about personal consequences. Does an employee who signaled his voting for Policy X have some measure of responsibility for how that policy plays out in their own workplace? If an employee wants an eco-sensitive redistributive policy of some kind, shouldn’t he or she be prepared for what that may entail, personally?"

This brings to mind a passage in Atlas Shrugged, where a train full of people are forced to live (and die) by the outcome of all the social policies they supported and advocated for, believing them to be relatively benign, without consideration for the natural consequences of the mindless platitudes and redistributive policies they all clamoured for.

Prosperity does not spontaneously produce itself. Any attempt to meddle with the natural course of cause and effect, in the interest of "fairness" always leads to failure. A colectivist approach does nothing more than ensure we fail together.

Wonder Woman

crappers. Nice typos. Sorry David. Fancy new fingernails...

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