David Thompson
Subscribe

Categories

Blog powered by Typepad

« Reheated (39) | Main | Friday Ephemera »

July 09, 2014

Comments

WTP

He's just arguing his point of view on the internet

Disagree. In order to have a point of view, you have to start with a point, that being a fixed position determined by an ordered set of coordinates. Not some constantly shifting, vaguely defined, contrarianism lacking a viable footing. Much like Oakland, there's no there there. We're just engaged in a fruitless effort trying to nail jello to a wall.

David

Oh bugger. We’re on page two again.

[ Resumes compiling of ephemera. ]

Surreptitious Evil

Where I live, we reach them out to about 500 yards or so with a 5.56mm.

That's remarkably kind of you. Sort of a distance love tap.

A real butch would use .338 Lapua Magnum or at least a .308 Winchester.

It reminds me of the story of the US vet who shot a burglar with a .22lr and was hauled up in front of the officers of the local Legion branch for not using a proper gun.

Steve 2: Steveageddon

Pfft. You guys are sissies.

If I have an enemy at 500 yards, I send my Mum in to give him a piece of her mind.

I could never reliably hit a target beyond 400m anyway. Stupid SUSAT. I do like how it glows when you twist the little dial though, I used to pretend I was Predator.

WTP - We're just engaged in a fruitless effort trying to nail jello to a wall.

Yes, but there's no point getting angry with the jelly. What if its jelly mum came after you? She'd be all "leave my boy alone, you awful man!" and hitting you with her wobbly raspberry-flavoured handbag.

Hal

And curse you Hal and Dicentra for conjuring this $&%# back up again.

Ah, no: . . . you have to say the name three times consecutively.

Once each in two different sentences doesn't count.

And Dicentra didn't even name 'im at all . . .

And I suppose I must curse myself for participating. Curses.

Oh! Here you are! Always glad to continue to be of help.

R. Sherman

Minnow,

"Butch" or no, I can leave my car doors unlocked and not worry about it being stolen. It my neighborhood, a remarkably diverse place, BTW, crime is virtually non-existent, primarily because we have the right and ability--supported by local law enforcement--to protect ourselves and our neighbors. I realize it's difficult for you to fathom, but stay with me here: A populace which is prevented from defending itself will only be victimized. Exhibit A is the present state of affairs in the UK.

WTP

Ah, no: . . . you have to say the name three times consecutively

That's never been my experience. Three in any short period of time will often suffice. Present empirical evidence backs me up, I believe.

Yes, but there's no point getting angry with the jelly.

Oh, true. Being a sucker for responsibility I blame myself, actually...After Hal and Dicentra, of course.

Jeff Guinn

[Steve 2:] More broadly, criminals in Britain no longer fear the law. We ought to change that.

[Minnow:] Since we put more and more people in jail each year, you'd think the opposite, wouldn't you? What else could we do to increase their fear?

More than the law, criminals in Britain need to fear their fellow citizens.

How? Widespread gun ownership. That the courts allow repeat predators to free range is bad enough, but keep in mind that the police and courts only come into play after a predator, fearing nothing from his victims, has struck.

Where I live, nearly everyone owns a gun. Contrary to progressive religious beliefs, the consequences aren't murder and mayhem. Instead, street crime, hooliganism and home invasions are extremely rare.

And the odds of a reprise of the London riots hereabouts? Nil.

[Minnow:] I am slightly bemused by all the people who think that social circumstances have no effect on criminality. Do they think it is just a coincidence that repeat offenders tend to be poor people, with low levels of education and a history of violent and/or sexual abuse? Or is it a genetic thing?

I detect at least one logical fallacy there. False dichotomy and strawman argument, in addition to the inversion of cause-effect noted above.

BTW, it is a genetic thing. Ever notice that almost all criminals are XY?

Hal

Where I live, we reach them out to about 500 yards or so with a 5.56mm.

That's remarkably kind of you. Sort of a distance love tap.

A real butch would use .338 Lapua Magnum or at least a .308 Winchester.


Hmmm. I've been wondering. Could anyone comment on the engineering difficulties or ease of combining the .300 Winchester with the Calico magazine design and a bullpup configuration?

Would the result indeed be a rather interesting high impact and long range carbine through sniper's rifle, depending on interchangeable barrel length, or would that be just a general engineering mess?

It reminds me of the story of the US vet who shot a burglar with a .22lr and was hauled up in front of the officers of the local Legion branch for not using a proper gun.

Heh!

Anna

OT, Guardian doing well again… only a £30 million loss this year. Progress!

Theophrastus

Steve -
Do poopsenders deliver in the UK?
And can you obtain minnow's home address?

dicentra

And then when I saw the comment count exceeded 100, I knew the bitty fish had indeed swum in.

Surreptitious Evil

If a sniper needs a 100 round magazine, then he's not a very good sniper. And even if he is, then he's going to want to bug out well before he's more than a 10th or so of the way through it. And do you really want to be holding all that extra weight?

Otherwise, http://www.keppeler-te.de/cms/pages/englisch/sniper/ks-v-bullpup.php#1

The Calico feed system could probabky be re-engineered for a bullpup, but note that they've concentrated on small rounds - .22lr and 9mm, not the longer rounds that most mikitary distance weapons use or the much larger rounds necessary for accurate shooting at distances.

Still, I'm sure you'd sell a few to the RAF Regiment and to the RMP CP teams, just for the "ally factor".

Hal

If a sniper needs a. . . .

I remember a comment from the book Black Hawk Down where a soldier is particularly frustrated about having fired a number of rounds, he knows he's hit the people he's aiming at, and they're still active, still firing back---the comment is something to the effect that if you're firing a glorified .22, then that's the results you're going to get, why can't the Army get a real rifle for people to use?!?!?!?!

And thus a thought is, go with a larger round, go with a known stable and long range round, use the Calico design for the capacity, and certainly the bullpup design for the efficiency . . . The inherent range will provide a definite advantage, along with the mass being fired, where yes, this would not be a weapon for a dedicated sniper for exactly the reasons you cite----but then consider what a generalist grunt could make use of with a sniper's general capability . . . .

Hal

Oh, right:

Apart from the fact that so many crimes are committed by repeat offenders?

First of all, don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail.

Ahem. Cough. Hmmm. Hmmm . . . . .

Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers: The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country; The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; The Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country; And The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

What about the people who read The Sun?

Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

Jeff Guinn

And then when I saw the comment count exceeded 100, I knew the bitty fish had indeed swum in.

Beats an echo chamber.

And I congratulate Minnow for swimming upstream. It isn't easy going one on 30.

(As I know from the couple times I have waded into the fevered swamps that are Crooked Timber. A nastier onslaught of unexamined ideas would be difficult to find, except for probably a thousand other places where our collectivist overlords fluff themselves.)

---

Hal:

Have you read The Gun? It comes to the opposite conclusion.

I'm nowhere near enough of an expert to know one way or another; my background tends more towards large quantities of tritonal.

Hal

Hal:

Have you read The Gun? It comes to the opposite conclusion.

Hmmm. Haven't read it . . . and . . .

The book starts with an excellent historical account of developments of the machine gun and goes on to describe the invention of AK-47 and M-16 in this way. But then it stops - for no apparent reason. I would very much like to read about what were the developments in assault rifle design since 1960's, but the historical account stops there.

and also . . .

As this is written (02 Feb 2011), according to the Army Times, the Army will be testing new weapons to replace the M4 and M-16. (Note: Most of the Reserves/Guard called to active duty in Iraq and Afghanistan were deployed with the M-16A2..and not the modified M4).

---No have not read every single comment there either, but did run across those rather quickly . . . .

WTP

Beats an echo chamber.

And I congratulate Minnow for swimming upstream. It isn't easy going one on 30.

While I might agree re an echo chamber, the fish is not the thing for the job. He can't support his positions, avoids admitting getting facts wrong, repeatedly plays the dues ex machina of "false consciousness", takes information out of context, etc. Don't see much to congratulate. Arguing is easy if you pick and choose your facts and dismiss your adversaries as lacking scruples. What I find most damning is I know I can make better, more grounded leftist arguments than he does. I've gone into hostile extreme conservative territory and faired better, if intellectual honesty holds any water.

galah23

David. Tipped you. This post, particularly the section about the London riots from a few years back, resonates deeply with me. At the time, a couple of people I've known since my late teens were crowing about how wonderful it all was. One is a puppeteer performer and champagne socialist who thinks that the arts are essential to human existence and should always be publicly funded, the other is a worthless, contemptible little Marxist and "Fauxilist" who has held the same grubby little beliefs all his life. I want to take this whole thread and smash it in their respective faces like one of those cream pies that used to get big laughs in the old days of black & white television. Thank YOU.

dicentra

And I congratulate Minnow for swimming upstream. It isn't easy going one on 30.

Well…

Those from "the other team" who show up in a blog comment section tend to fall into the following categories:

(1) Curious Tourist — "How come you guys think X?" Not hostile toward regulars; merely wants clarification. Usually pops in once or twice and never returns.

(2) Devil's Advocate — Desires to represent the opposing PoV in the conversation. Not hostile toward regulars, typically engages arguments in good faith.

(3) Argument Clinic — Delights in verbal fisticuffs for its own sake. May or may not be hostile toward regulars. Point of exercise is to fight. May or may not engage arguments in good faith.

(4) Troll — Sole aim is sadism — stirring it up for the sake of making regulars miserable. Is not interested in good-faith arguments and holds the regulars in utter contempt. Frequently engages in flame-throwing and other dirty pool.

(5) Sophist Troll — Similar to a regular troll but pretends to be a Devil's Advocate. Holds regulars in contempt, is not interested in good-faith arguments, and conceals barbed hooks in reasonable-sounding assertions. Will engage in apparently civil give-and-take for awhile but the attentive reader notices the subtle goal-post movement, the non sequiturs, the omission of actual engagement with the regulars' arguments, cloaked ad hominem, and doctrinaire repetition. After the Sophist Troll tires of the pretense, it turns and rends the regular(s).

I know which conclusion I've come to regarding bitty fish, based on prior experience. YMMV.

David

galah23,

Cheers for the tip. Much appreciated.

This post, particularly the section about the London riots from a few years back, resonates deeply with me.

I’m glad. The threads and links from those old posts are, I think, still interesting. It was a revealing few days, certainly, not least in the glaring mismatch between what was actually happening (and who was actually doing it) and what certain parts of the media really wanted to imagine. And wanted others to imagine. The capacity for dishonesty, and in some cases wilful hallucination, was extraordinary.

With unseemly haste, and in the face of all evidence, dozens of our leftist betters insisted that the motives of the opportunist vermin, whom they called “protestors,” just happened to align with their own pet causes and rapacious socialism. And so Polly Toynbee and Harriet Harman wanted us to believe that thugs were punching pensioners, smashing small ethnic restaurants and stealing flat screen TVs because of cuts in library funding.

And when a visiting Malaysian student was attacked by a gang of thugs, left dazed and bleeding on the pavement, and was then helped to his feet by another gang – who proceeded to rob him a second time – this was due to the nation having insufficient social workers. And the far-from-starving predators - many of whom were coordinating their thievery on expensive smartphones - were stealing trainers and robbing off-licenses as “a political statement.” According to Laurie Penny.

As Mr Eugenides quipped at the time: “I really want an iMac but don’t have £1000 to spare. So I plan to steal one and blame it on library closures.” All of which led to the parody Twitter hashtag “ThingsToBlameForTheLondonRiots” - of which, “unfair mobile phone contracts” was one of many fine suggestions.

It really was a window into the delusions of the left, and just how pernicious they are.

The legal eagle has landed

Fun story about crime and the law from a guy I knew who once worked in a law firm. Scumbag arrested for stealing cars because he left fingerprints all over half-a-dozen recovered cars. Pretty conclusive, huh?

Nope. Scumbag's lawyers managed to get six separate trials (as apparently so many at one sitting would point to guilt) and at each separate court hearing it was argued the fingerprints were in the car because the car owner must have given Scumbag a lift at some point and never cleaned the car afterwards. I mean, who keeps proof of cleaning their car?

Scumbag duly got off each individual charge to either continue his game of stealing cars or to repent and contemplate a crime-free life from then on. Yeah, the jury's still out on that one.

Jeff Guinn

[dicentra:] Those from "the other team" who show up in a blog comment section tend to fall into the following categories:

From my point of view, the arguments of collectivists have, at some level, a moral and emotional appeal. Unfortunately, again from my point of view, they are also, on many levels, objectively and obviously wrong.

Yet Minnow believes them, nonetheless.

As I mentioned above, a few months ago I pulled a Minnow, and drove the thread to over 300 comments. (Do a page search on Hey Skipper. Or not. I'd go with "not".).

From my point of view, blinkered though it probably is, I was a Devil's Advocate in your schema. From their point of view, almost without exception, I was anything but.

Which leaves me completely mystified.

I simply can't fathom how Minnow believes the things Minnow writes, or that the collectivists at CT couldn't suss the glaringly apparent.

Yet he does, and they didn't.

Which is probably the way Minnow sees it here, mirror style.

There is probably a profound philosophical argument here somewhere, but I'm at least two glasses of Glengoyne past making it.

Minnow

No I'm taking it up with you because you are the one here who suggested that rape convictions were too low.

No, you brought up rape. It is your bee and your bonnet.

My point being that if you think that convictions and punishment for crime A are inadequate

Thinking conviction levels are inadequate does not imply that you think punishment is inadequate.

Minnow

So we have this thing called the market, that allows us to find the most valuable ways to serve one another.

Most valuable for the economy but not necessarily for the individuals serving it. Some people win, others lose. How you feel about that sometimes depends on which group you find yourself in.

Minnow

A populace which is prevented from defending itself will only be victimized. Exhibit A is the present state of affairs in the UK.

The UK compared with where?

David

This seems somehow apposite, again regarding the riots:

When the rioters came to attack the premises of Kurdish and Turkish businesses in Hackney’s Stoke Newington High Street and Kingsland Road on Monday night, the owners were waiting for them. “It was between about nine and 10 at night,” said Yilmaz Karagoz, sitting in his coffee shop next to a jeweller’s shop that has been shuttered since Sunday when the rioting began and a pharmacy that closed a day after. “There were a lot of them. We came out of our shops but the police asked us to do nothing. But the police did not do anything so, as more came, we chased them off ourselves.” The staff from a local kebab restaurant ran at the attackers, doner knives in their hands. “I don’t think they will be coming back,” Karagoz said.[…]

When the trouble came, hairdressers, sales assistants and butchers were among the scores of Turkish and Kurdish workers who stood outside their businesses in Green Lanes, Haringey, from 8pm having been warned by police to expect trouble… Three workers from Re-Style Hairdressers were among those out in Green Lanes, after word spread that an attack was imminent at about 4pm. “I was here with my brother and my boss waiting for them until about midnight,” said 16-year-old Huseyin Beytar. “If some guy ever breaks a window in this street, all the Turkish Kurdish people come down to protect the shops. We’re like a family.” […]

Deputy assistant commissioner Stephen Kavanagh had already said it was not baton rounds or water cannon that would defeat the rioters – it was communities themselves. “We are already seeing a community kickback. People are angry. This is their neighbourhoods that are at stake,” he said.

I don’t know about anyone else, but given the inadequacies of the initial police response, I find that kind of community spirit rather encouraging. Hairdressers with baseball bats defending their homes and businesses. Good for them.

Minnow

I don’t know about anyone else, but given the inadequacies of the initial police response,

Inadequacies that may not have been entirely inadvertent.

David

Inadequacies that may not have been entirely inadvertent.

Meaning?

Minnow

Meaning? That the police may not have turned up with their A game, given the strong desire to embarrass the government over threats to funding.

Minnow

We told you mayhem would ensue if you didn't give us more money and now look ...

Steve 2: Steveageddon

Theophrastus - Sadly, PoopSenders doesn't have a UK presence yet.

I was hoping to send my best friend a bucket of gorilla poop, but it was not to be.

Minnow - entirely possible with Plod.

Equally, they could've just been paralysed with political correctness, as they were when Muslims rioted across northern England back in summer 2001.

It's time we privatised the police.

Minnow

Equally, they could've just been paralysed with political correctness

I think perhaps we have met different policemen.

What?

It is hard not to come to the conclusion that Minnow is merely doing all this arguing as part of some game.

He/she/it puts forward no reasonable case and when answered switches blithely to either ignoring any fact he doesn't like or resorting to the standard 'but it's not fair' wibble. I particularly like his dig at the police and of course in so doing he/she/it talks, as any lefty would, not about people or consequences or social distress but 'funding.'

It is always about money for socialists. From that, they only care how much cash can be creamed off for fellow socialist causes. But as I have said, it is all a game to them. For the world's Minnows there are no personal responsibilities, no personal choices, not even any personality. There are only 'policies' requiring money, and preferably other people's at that.

Minnow

It is always about money for socialists.

Whereas the police rise above that sort of thing, driven only by the urge to serve humanity?

But you are more or less right, for socialists it is all about the money. Who has it, how they get it, where it goes. That must seem shocking to capitalists.

Steve 2: Steveageddon

What? - yes, but what about girls in Africa who have no access to clean water because of patriarchy and capitalism?

Thornavis.

No, you brought up rape. It is your bee and your bonnet.

I have an affinity with bees it's true, only the other day I moved a bumblebee nest to a place of safety, I felt no fear because they are not radfems. Anyway It's not a bee and I don't have a bonnet. My sole intention in raising that particular issue was to highlight the disparity between radical left attitudes to the crime of rape and their attitude to practically all other crimes, a disparity that is widespread on the left in fact, the two Rs, rape and racism apparently being the only unforgivable crimes now. As I assume you would count yourself as amongst the leftists I thought you might wish to comment on that. Throughout our exchanges I have been genuinely trying to have a proper discussion with you but you aren't interested, preferring instead to deliberately miss points and evade questions, WTP is right it's pointless wasting time on you.

Smudger

It is always about money for socialists.

Hence yesterday's strike.

Got to love lefty teachers. Fuck the kids we're paid to be teaching; depriving them of a day in school is only Bad And Wrong when their parents do it. Our cushy pay conditions are at stake here, you know! Err... social justice!

Minnow

depriving them of a day in school is only Bad And Wrong when their parents do it

Depriving? Have you ever been to school?

Minnow

As I assume you would count yourself as amongst the leftists I thought you might wish to comment on that.

Among the leftists, yes, but not among those particular leftists. You need to find one and have it out with them.

I moved a bumblebee nest to a place of safety, I felt no fear because they are not radfems

They live in female-only societies of sisters, eating male young unless they are specifically bred for one-off breeding purposes after which they are left to starve to death. How much more rad do you need?

WTP

I have an affinity with bees it's true, only the other day I moved a bumblebee nest to a place of safety,

I take it you've never tangled with the Georgia (not Tech) yellow jacket? Evil, nasty, violent, territorial little bastards. Find the hole, pour the lighter fluid, light the match. Now that's revenge served hot. Powerless my a*s.

Minnow

Actually yellow jackets are not generally aggressive insects and they serve a very valuable function in keeping down other insect populations. If you take the time to understand them instead of just killing them, you might even see how beautiful they are.

Smudger

Depriving? Have you ever been to school?

Yep - like our esteemed host I went to a bog-standard UK state school, and it was piss poor. (Why, it's almost as if there's some kind of connection between state provision and things being piss poor...)

Minnow

Why, it's almost as if there's some kind of connection between state provision and things being piss poor...

Perhaps it's just that private things are always so excellent?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3980201.ece

WTP

OK, I keep promising myself I will ignore this troll (perhaps we could call him Number 5) but this takes the cake.

Actually yellow jackets are not generally aggressive insects and they serve a very valuable function in keeping down other insect populations. If you take the time to understand them instead of just killing them, you might even see how beautiful they are.

I'll try telling that to my poor dog who was attacked three times (once in his considerable manhood) while simply walking across our deck. Socialists know ever so much sitting in their caves 7000 miles away. I'm sure Number 5 has spent considerable time in the lower Appalachian mountains. Spent time talking to the animals, learning all their languages. Maybe he has an animal degree. Studied elephant and eagle, buffalo and beagle, Alligator, guinea pig, and bee? Perhaps parlayed with pachyderms? It's a fairy tale worthy of Hans Anderson and Grimm. A man who walks with the animals, talks with the animals, makes good practice for the chavs, hooligans, punks, and yobs. Fairy tales indeed.

Or I suppose that could be sarcasm. It's hard to tell when you're dealing with clowns. At the circus the makeup and floppy shoes are the give-away.

Thornavis.

I take it you've never tangled with the Georgia (not Tech) yellow jacket?

No I leave wasps well alone. There's a definite hierarchy, bumblebees are good libertarians, peaceful, living in small loosely organised societies and only stinging when severely provoked. Honey Bees are socialists - stroppy collectivists, wasps are downright Stalinist/fascist.

Minnow

Socialists know ever so much sitting in their caves 7000 miles away.

Really, we get wasps here too. Even inside the ivory tower sometimes. Dogs are stupid, they don't leave things alone. It's really not the wasp's fault. Live and let live I say.

There's a definite hierarchy, bumblebees are good libertarians

Since the society is organised around a single all-powerful ruler served by de-sexed clone slaves who are later abandoned to starve to death, you may be right.

Hal

Since we're pushing buttons and picking up sticks to poke things with . . .

. . . wasps are downright Stalinist/fascist.

Remember, Mao/Hitler/Stalin/Kim/Mussolini are all uniformly clustered together in the same left wing extremist cluster of dictatorial socialists/communists who vehemently worship The State/God embodied by The Great Leader, as contrasted with Theodosius I/Torquemada/Khomeini/Khamenei who are clustered together in the same right wing extremist cluster of dictatorial right wing faith based who vehemently worship God/The State as embodied by The Great Leader, where we conservatives in between keep sooo annoyingly thinking for ourselves and our own and focusing on how we all can best keep all things going . . . . .

---Hokay, that should get us onto a third page in about . . . oh . . four hours from now?

Minnow

Hokay, that should get us onto a third page in about . . . oh . . four hours from now?

Which surely merits sandwiches and midget gems.

Spiny Norman

As time goes on, and a considerable history of commentary accrues, I am increasingly of the belief that our resident pigeon is a "faux-troll", a parody of the most clichéd "bleeding-heart" Socialist imaginable. Every leftist trope debunked early on in this thread, he serves up with a side of smugness. I'm gobsmacked. No one could genuinely be this blind. No ignorance could possibly be this invincible. This has to be a joke.

Go ahead, Minnow, strut about. That's what usually comes next.

Minnow

Every leftist trope debunked early on in this thread

'Debunk' does not mean 'complain about' or 'misunderstand'.

And it's more of a sashay than a strut.

WTP

Really, we get wasps here too. Even inside the ivory tower sometimes. Dogs are stupid, they don't leave things alone. It's really not the wasp's fault.

Typical of the socialist to see how all things are the same. Wasps in the UK, just like wasps 7000 miles away. Thus the stunning success of socialism across the centuries and across the globe. You can see these 'jackets from the ivory tower, I'm sure. How many elephants did it take to build one that tall, I wonder.

Not enough to insult my entire family but now you're insulting my dog as well. You really are a piece of work. I'll say this for my dog, he's significantly smarter than most socialists. Though hypothetically speaking, we do agree then that it is stupid to not leave things alone? A little message from another dog...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF43P-FJrFo#t=5m30s

Minnow

Not enough to insult my entire family but now you're insulting my dog as well.

It wasn't an insult. All dogs are stupid. I am sure he won't mind me saying so.

And there is a reason that Vespula alascensis was for so long misidentified as Vespula vulgaris, the two species are incredibly similar in appearance and behaviour, both are docile animals that will not attack unless provoked. I know that science is annoying that way, but there is is, we can know all about things even when they are far away. If you bother to understand them, they will not bother you too much. But I understand how ignorance creates fear and that fear often leads to the urge for violence. It's a form of socialisation, or a failure of socialisation depending on how you look at it; not really your fault.

Minnow

Here is a little video to show how gentle the V. alascensis is (note, the video maker may be wrong that vulgaris and alascensis are interchangeable, but you would not be able to separate them without look at the cellular level)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDsH7fVx3b0

Now tell me that you don't feel more kindly towards these amazing creatures. See how knowledge can make it easier to get along? If we just take the time to understand instead of blindly accepting our prejudices? I am hinting at a little political moral here, I wonder if you can spot it?

WTP

I know that science is annoying that way, but there is is, we can know all about things even when they are far away...both are docile animals that will not attack unless provoked...

I know reality is annoying. You socialists have such a hard time with it.

Empiricism. Philosophy without it is blind. I am hinting at a little self-awareness and who is blindly accepting the prejudices of whom, but as I've said before, and yet continue to fail to follow my own advice (lack of self-awareness on my own part I suppose), you are impervious to understanding anything outside of what flows through your basement ivory tower. You simply cannot accept that there are experiences and realities outside of your reading. You don't grasp how much of what has been written down was first observed in real world experience, how such must be informed by real world experience. It's much like the fundamentalist who cannot comprehend a reality beyond what his Bible tells him to believe. If it were just you, so what. But you buggers are multiplying thanks to the milk and honey siphoned off from those of us who work in the real world of success and failure.

I gotta stop this. It's a sickness, really.

Hal

So, as Minnow goes limping about, hardwired wasps and what to do with them do readily tie into what to do with not at all hardwired criminals and what to do with them . . .

WTP: I take it you've never tangled with the Georgia (not Tech) yellow jacket? Evil, nasty, violent, territorial little bastards. Find the hole, pour the lighter fluid, light the match. Now that's revenge served hot. Powerless my a*s.

Now, is WTP stating to eradicate all wasps everywhere? No. he’s focusing on solving a local issue.

Now let’s look at solving another local issue . . .

When the rioters came to attack the premises of Kurdish and Turkish businesses in Hackney’s Stoke Newington High Street and Kingsland Road on Monday night, the owners were waiting for them. notes David.

Certainly, the wasps are hardwired and will attack---just as ebola is hardwired and will “attack”.

With the 2011 England riots being such a perfect example, there we have lower and middle class peons, aka chavs/yuppies/hipsters/whatever who are not all gathering together and fighting for a cause. We are running out of Foot Locker and thiefin' shoes, where the complete contrast came from the lower and middle class patricians, being in this case, Hairdressers with baseball bats defending their homes and businesses. Good for them. . . . .

The rioters are and were not hardwired, did need to be addressed, and remain quite different from “The People” . . . .

Hal

Awhile back we came up with Thompson's Law, and regarding that, I would judge that Minnow is a Pakled---or as I commented when watching that episode, Oh, Look! Yuppies!---Or as they're called these days, hipsters.

Consider: The Pakleds' own technology (and, it seems, their intellectual development) was significantly less advanced than that of many other spacefaring races. According to Lt Cmdr. Data, it remained "a genuine curiosity how they ever mastered the rudiments of space travel." They were driven by their unwillingness to develop technological knowledge on their own, desiring to instantly gain the power that other cultures enjoy. They therefore tried to acquire technology from other species, generally by theft.(TNG: "Samaritan Snare")

Soooo, as Dicentra has been concluding regarding a number of posts to a subject, what comes to mind in this cluster of instances is that if this hits three pages, we may have the start of a new law:

If Minnow posts at least once, the resulting pages will be at least three.

Jeff Guinn

A populace which is prevented from defending itself will only be victimized. Exhibit A is the present state of affairs in the UK.

[Minnow:] The UK compared with where?

Here.

And a guy who has nothing more than first hand experience to go on.

[Minnow:] Meaning? That the police may not have turned up with their A game, given the strong desire to embarrass the government over threats to funding.

We told you mayhem would ensue if you didn't give us more money and now look ...

Your assertion, serious and completely unjustified, somehow becomes fact. And, per progressive reasoning, acts to obscure what was really going on: massive nihilistic mob violence, for which police forces will never be manned.

Progressive policies have created these nihilistic conditions, not some vaporous and insulting allegations about police behavior.

Whereas the police rise above that sort of thing, driven only by the urge to serve humanity?

For the most part, yes. Just like most people who serve in the military, or in fire departments.

[Minnow:] Actually yellow jackets are not generally aggressive insects and they serve a very valuable function in keeping down other insect populations. If you take the time to understand them instead of just killing them, you might even see how beautiful they are.

Bollocks. My kids got swarmed once in Florida, and last summer up here in Anchorage, Alaska, my family got swarmed while sitting on our deck minding our own business.

Gasoline works when you can get to the hole. Of course the purpose made insecticides are the best. But when those run dry, a can of WD-40 and a match provide very satisfying results.

While seemingly off topic, [Minnow:] Actually {statement} is a classic collectivist trope, where {statement} is nothing more than a pronunciamento self evidently true solely because a collectivist thinks it. Then what inevitably follows is the snarky condescension ( … both are docile animals that will not attack unless provoked. I know that science is annoying that way …). Minnow then continues the socialist fail by insisting, in effect, that wherever reality clashes with "science" then so much the worse for reality.

Understanding wasps doesn't make them any less dangerous. Unless, of course, I use that understanding to know where to look for them around my house, and use that knowledge to eliminate them.

Just like understanding nihilistic rioters doesn't make them any less dangerous, unless that understanding is used to ensure their nihilism is very short lived.

And then the socialist tagline But I understand how ignorance creates fear … , elevated consciousness. Your awareness, as a collectivist, so exceeds our own that you generously extend your sympathy to our benightedness.

All of that without saying anything reality based. Your self-regard is amazing. Just like every other collectivist I have ever known.

Perhaps most amazing, though, is that you dehumanize rioters to be nothing more morally aware, or having any more agency, than insects.

(Pro-tip: never argue from analogy unless the analogy actually clarifies. In almost all cases it doesn't, runs the risk of making matters worse by using an inapt analogy, to the extent where what you end up saying, in effect, makes everyone else gain further understanding of why collectivists turn out to be such inhuman monsters.

Hal

Gasoline works when you can get to the hole. Of course the purpose made insecticides are the best. But when those run dry, a can of WD-40 and a match provide very satisfying results.

For David's traffic analysis notes, my coworkers and I have a slow day at the paycheck today . . .

At this moment, and with Jeff's note, I'm wondering what would happen with a wasp's next and aluminum . . . .

ac1

" Some people win, others lose. "

Marxism ensures that all lose.

Jeff Guinn

Hal, that is a beautiful, soul-warming video.

Makes me want to move back to Florida and wipeout fire ant nests.

Henry

We could discuss the sort of uncertainty principle that applies when someone persistently misrepresents, patronises, misses the point, ignores any incisive questions and instead picks on minor point-scoring opportunities.

Is this someone being mischievous, or is it a particular sort of obtuseness? The only evidence we have is the typed utterances of said person. Sort of a 21st century Turing test. Is this person conscious of their evasions...?

Given the obsessiveness, gender must be male though.

Hal

We could discuss the sort of uncertainty principle that applies when . . . .

There is a very interesting question that I've been staring at for a number of issues. For an individual or for a system of group of individuals, there can be a best practice for best results, what to best do, etc.---A lot of economic and gaming theories have been based on this.

And then what is an individual---or a group---to do when that practice is not adopted, or is deliberately refused?---At a national level there is warfare, and there are the courts, but what about down on the individual level, or the small group level?

An observation of the U.S. Marines is of a deliberate intent to push as much as possible down the organization as far as possible to then have corporals doing rather major work.

In parallel, an answer that comes to mind is to proactively see and seek out and plan for the most that can be done by the individual, and then when one can, ramp up to small groups and what they do, and so forth, and at all levels, always be ready to drop back to the smaller unit to best keep moving, keep being able to function and work, and get things done . . .

Hal

Marxism ensures that all lose.

Oh, nonsense. Everyone gains from classical Marxism, particular with all five of the brothers . . .

And particularly when the other fellow is involved!

Matt

Might be worth noting that American wasps identified as yellowjackets may well be Vespula Germanica, not Vespula Alascensis. They'll happily invite themselves to your picnic, and then consider you the aggressor when you object. To say nothing of the gargantuan nests they tend to build in urban areas when given the chance.

Hal

. . . American wasps identified as yellowjackets may well be Vespula Germanica, . . .

[insert punchline involving mid European history of war from the 1800s through the mid 1900s . . .]

LM

Those actually doing the thieving offered more revealing explanations. As one pair of female looters put it while drinking stolen wine: “Chucking bottles, breaking into stuff, it was madness… good though. Good fun. Free alcohol.” Obligingly, with prompting, the duo added a political dimension, of a sort: “It’s the government’s fault. I dunno… the Conservatives… yeah, whatever, whoever it is. We’re showing the police we can do what we want.”

http://davidthompson.typepad.com/davidthompson/2011/08/the-riots-summarised.html

Dear Left, please confiscate more of my earnings and give it to those poor deserving people.

David

Dear Left, please confiscate more of my earnings and give it to those poor deserving people.

I’ve restored the video links. That one (only part of which, sadly, is available online) was not at all unusual. After prompting from the BBC reporter, these delightful ladies blamed “the government” for their own delinquency and thieving – though they weren’t entirely sure which party was in government or what that unknown government might have done to justify robbing the neighbours or burning down their homes. They had, however, cottoned on that blaming someone else was very much the expected thing.

The boastful young women then said that their predation on their neighbours was to “[show] the police we can do what we want” and to “[show] rich people we can do what we want.” Presumably they felt that Mr Patel’s small off-license somehow constituted a stronghold of indefensible privilege and therefore deserved punishment. Apparently, running a business, however modest - and employing other local people - was enough to mark a person out as a target for violence and depravity. Laughing depravity.

If the air of sociopathy and narcissism isn’t sufficiently clear, the ladies also hoped that the looting, arson and muggings – of other people - would continue the following night. In their eyes, then, other people’s lives and livelihoods are… well, nothing much - not compared to the “good fun” of watching things burn. As I said, a flammable backdrop to delinquent psychodrama.

dicentra

I am slightly bemused by all the people who think that social circumstances have no effect on criminality.

You have to include all crimes, not just the ones that scare people.

Economic level determines which crimes are available for one to commit. The poorer people must settle for ordinary property crimes such as mugging, burglary, car thefts, and beating people into bloody pulps in a dark alley.

As you go up the economic scale, there's identity theft, scamming old people out of their life savings over the phone, insurance fraud, check-kiting, and other "milder" forms of theft.

Then you move up to embezzlement, insider trading, and other various types of fraud and theft that require you to know the rules of the industry and also be on the inside.

Bill Gates, for example, won't break into your car and steal your stereo. It's not worth his time or effort. But he will intimidate hardware manufacturers into not selling their computers with other operating systems preloaded, then put Netscape out of business by giving away IE for "free," then bundling his infernal Office suite with Windows, forcing the consumer to pay extra for a competitor's software, and play all kinds of other dirty tricks that most of us can't imagine, let alone pull off, because we're not in the position to do what he does.

There's no ethical difference between a burglar and Bernie Maddow: Maddow just had access that a common burglar doesn't, and Maddow doesn't make you feel unsafe in your own house by breaking windows and tossing the room.

The book-cookers at Enron, likewise, are morally no different from a car thief, except that their actions affect more people and have more drastic consequences.

All of them are motivated by the same greed and lack of morality, though. Given the chance, the street thug would demand the same bailouts from the federal government for his brokerage firm that he, through his immoral actions, caused to fail.

Murder, of course, is available to all. The poor must use guns or fists; the wealthier can poison by degrees, and the super-rich can arrange for your brakes to fail.

dicentra

They'll happily invite themselves to your picnic, and then consider you the aggressor when you object.

Them yellowjackets have wicked pincers in the front. I've seen them extract an entire corn kernel from a cob and fly off with it, plus snip off a chunk of meat and handily exit the scene.

I've also watched one pinch my brother's leg, not sting, and it still left a nasty mark.

Given that yellowjackets are an introduced species in the Americas, I have no compunction killing them.

dicentra

If Minnow posts at least once, the resulting pages will be at least three.

Nah, I wouldn't give him that much credit. One Minnow comment will result in a half-dozen rebuttals from the regulars; it's when he comes back and starts dinking around with the rebuttals that the page count increases.

Which, I must observe, isn't even 1.8 yet.

Hal

Which, I must observe, isn't even 1.8 yet.

Looks good to me . . . .

Minnow

Given that yellowjackets are an introduced species in the Americas, I have no compunction killing them.

I shudder to think what other groups Dicentra may include under 'introduced species'.

Matt

"I shudder to think what other groups Dicentra may include under 'introduced species'."

The aforementioned Vespula germanica really is introduced in North America, according to Wikipedia, and other sources seem to bear this out. Though there are also native North American species that v. germanica has displaced in some regions. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the introduced varieties are nastier than the native bunch -- you don't become a successful invasive species by being timid.

Minnow

Actually I think that V. alascensis may be a native American species that was misidentified as V. vulgaris/germanica, but I am not 100% sure (about the nativeness).

But most migrant species do not displace native species, nice or nasty. They co-exist.

Matt

"Actually I think that V. alascensis may be a native American species that was misidentified as V. vulgaris/germanica, but I am not 100% sure (about the nativeness)."

V. alascensis may be native (may or may not be different than V. vulgaris), but V. Germanica appears to be non-native.

"But most migrant species do not displace native species, nice or nasty. They co-exist."

Tell that to the Eurasian red squirrels of the British Isles, who are under serious pressure from Eastern Gray Squirrels from North America. Plenty of other examples (cane toads and rabbits in Australia, rats on the Galapagos, pigs almost anywhere, killer bees, fire ants, kudzu) -- there's a reason why Customs is very picky about people bringing non-native species, or produce that might contain non-native species, into the country.

Thornavis.

Granted that some of the agitation against non natives is seriously overdone, a good example being the ridiculous eradication from Britain of the Ruddy Duck, the notion that non natives co-exist with natives peacefully is still thoroughly anthropomorphic. Species don't co-exist they either compete or they don't and the competition may or may not result in one or more species losing out, possibly even going extinct. Non natives are often at an advantage because they lack any natural control in their new home, Japanese Knotweed being a particularly annoying example.

Minnow seems to have projected his pro immigrant views on to the animal kingdom and decided that the Lion will happily lie down with the lamb.

WTP

the Lion will happily lie down with the lamb.

The lion, yes. It's the lamb that won't be getting any sleep.

Hal

Non natives are often at an advantage because they lack any natural control in their new home . . .

Kudzu in the US

dicentra

I shudder to think what other groups Dicentra may include under 'introduced species'.

Awwww. Minnow wants to imply that Homo sapiens sapiens, European morph, is an introduced species. How quaint.

Actually, if a genie gave me three wishes, they'd be these:

Eradicate all Tamarix ramosissima in the Green River drainage.
Eradicate all Ailanthus altissima in the Americas.
Eradicate all Convolvulus arvensis on planet Earth.

dicentra

Tell that to the Eurasian red squirrels of the British Isles, who are under serious pressure from Eastern Gray Squirrels from North America.

Thereby explaining the Doc Martin episode I saw yesterday.

But most migrant species do not displace native species, nice or nasty. They co-exist.

Minnow should quit talking through his hat. Thornavis is absolutely correct: non-natives usually out-compete the natives because their natural predators are absent, so they easily crowd out the natives.

Minnow has never said how he pays the rent, but it's certainly not (a) running any kind of business (b) agriculture (c) forestry (d) outside the hallowèd walls of academia or the public sector.

Hal

Di! Such Language!!!

Oh, wait, that's Latin.

Nevermind.

My, my, my . . . Napalm wouldn't even work on bindweed. Impressive.

dicentra

Di! Such Language!!!

Oh, wait, that's Latin.

To anyone who tries to grow things, Convolvolus arvensis is as authentic and vile a cuss word as you could ever hope to find.

Bindweed roots go down 30 feet or more. It takes years and years of continuous application of herbicide to finally deteriorate the roots such that they won't sprout anew.

If then.

Two projects for bindweed that will earn you an Emperorship:

(1) Create an herbicide that kills ONLY bindweed but naught else.
(2) Cross bindweed with potatoes or squash and solve world hunger. That stuff would grow on the moon, so the Sahara and other desert climes should be no prob.

Anyone who says that a weed is just a cute little plant that hasn't found its place has never watched bindweed twist up, choke, and overwhelm your other plants overnight.

Minnow has amply demonstrated his unfamiliarity with The Real World, Tooth and Claw, so I hereby wish bindweed on anything containing chlorophyll in Minnow's world.

That'll sort him out soon enough.

Hal

. . . The Real World, Tooth and Claw . . .

Harry Harrison does come to mind . . . .

Hal

Two projects for bindweed that will earn you an Emperorship:

Oh, right, as the solution---apparently---already exists, I'll take chief librarian and a really fat salary and pension.

Bindweed mite . . .

dicentra

OMG OMG OMG!

Where do I get me some bindweed mites!

Aceria malherbae! There IS a God after all!

Hal

Where do I get me some bindweed mites!

Oh, My question was, simply, 'k, given that (1) Create an herbicide that . . . is not going to work 'cause it'll take too much engineering, and (2) Cross bindweed with potatoes or squash . . . is not going to work to address bindweed 'cause it's not going to replace the current growths, therefore, what eats bindweed? . . . Ohhh Google!!!!!!

Minnow

"Minnow should quit talking through his hat. Thornavis is absolutely correct: non-natives usually out-compete the natives because their natural predators are absent, so they easily crowd out the natives."

No they don't. Most introduced species just find a spot in the ecosystem and get on with it. The damaging invasive species stand out because they are unusual. Anyway, it is silly to keep arguing. I think I will just go back to watching these lovely humming bird moths sipping at the buddleia.

Minnow

"Minnow has amply demonstrated his unfamiliarity with The Real World, Tooth and Claw, so I hereby wish bindweed on anything containing chlorophyll in Minnow's world."

Bindweed is very familiar in my part of the world. I can't get excited by it though. It is very pretty and easily managed by pulling it up every now and then (perhaps once every two or three months). Gardens require a bit of work. That;s just how it is.

Ground elder, on the other hand ...

Hal

Most introduced species just find a spot in the ecosystem and get on with it.

Ah yes, such as the Cane Toad

Invasive Fish

Invasive Species in general in North America

Etc.

Bindweed is very familiar in my part of the world. I can't get excited by it though. It is very pretty and easily managed by pulling it up every now and then (perhaps once every two or three months). Gardens require a bit of work. That;s just how it is.

That;s just how it is. does also require the nuclear devices to do the digging with, so the average gardener may not quite manage that bit.---and we’ve already assessed that anything up to napalm won’t even do the job.

dicentra

Bindweed is very familiar in my part of the world. I can't get excited by it though. It is very pretty and easily managed by pulling it up every now and then (perhaps once every two or three months). Gardens require a bit of work. That's just how it is.

If Minnow can't be bovvered, then it's not bovversome, and Dicentra is making a big stink for no good reason other than to be a pill.

As all conservatives do.

Minnow

That's just how it is. does also require the nuclear devices to do the digging with, so the average gardener may not quite manage that bit.---and we’ve already assessed that anything up to napalm won’t even do the job.

Trying to get rid of it is madness. Just pull it up every now and then and live with it. It isn't that big a deal unless you somehow feel that nature should just passively be lovely for you. Gardens are always attacked by weeds. What are you gonna do? At least this one is pretty.

And yes there are detrimental invasive species, but of the 50,000 or so introduced species in the States, how many are harmful? I mean, it's hard even to imagine the USA without horses and cows. I think it is worth the odd inconvenience because of the enormous gains. Others will differer and long for a pure, prelapsarian state where all foreign things are excluded.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Blogroll