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March 10, 2019

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ACTOldFart

Well David if you want to drag it back on to topic, give us another (story about a) vindictive paranoid man-hating lesbian.

David
Cars are killings us. Within 10 years, we must phase them out.

The strange, joyless world of Mr George Monbiot.

David

Well David if you want to drag it back on to topic,

Setting aside the questionable assumptions asserted as if self-evident, what’s striking is the psychology on display. Which, as so often, resembles that of a moody teenager. Such that boastfulness and spite are aired as if they were virtues.

LancastrianOik

It’s Andrew Murray. You’ll need something stronger.

His daughter is now established in the upper echelons of the Labour Party: "Please no bourgeoisie on my profile! Thanks".

In the event that the linked article is behind the Times' paywall, here is an excerpt:

When Rachel Riley, the co-presenter of ITV’s Countdown, decided to sue one of Jeremy Corbyn’s inner circle for libel after a Twitter spat last week, the last thing on her mind was the financial power of her adversary.

Why be intimidated? Laura Murray, a 30-year-old aide to the Labour leader, backs Corbyn’s plans for a wealth tax and declares “no bourgeoisie” on her Facebook page.

Today it can be revealed that her family was behind the anonymous sale of one of the most expensive artworks in history, Pablo Picasso’s L’Enfant au Pigeon (Child with a Dove), which was sold for £50m in 2013. She also owns a share of a £1.3m north London property transferred to her by her mother, reportedly saving up to £500,000 in inheritance tax.

Murray is the daughter of Andrew Murray, 60, a key Corbyn adviser who comes from Scottish aristocracy and whose grandfather served as the imperial governor of Madras. He left the Communist Party after 40 years in 2016.

Yet it is Laura Murray’s maternal lineage that accounts for much of her fortune. She is the great-granddaughter of the 2nd Baron Aberconway, an Eton-educated Edwardian industrialist, and Lady Aberconway, his wife, who was bequeathed Picasso’s masterpiece by the art collector rumoured in the family to have been her lover, Samuel Courtauld.

In such circumstances it is hardly surprising that she would not wish to associate with her social inferiors.

David

In such circumstances it is hardly surprising that she would not wish to associate with her social inferiors.

It’s often the way. I’d imagine it isn’t difficult to shift from an upper class, even aristocratic, assumption of superiority to a Marxoid assumption of superiority. The latter being the more poisonous, in my estimation.

Ten

Jeff Bezos should pay taxes on his billion dollars...

Ah, avenging the plebes.

Conservatives often confuse the (somewhat) defensible idea that’s it’s OK to have a billion dollars with the indefensible idea that a guy who has a billion dollars is always a good guy and so he should get a free ride.

'Conservatives' do get it wrong conflating capitalism with goodness. But this getup is runaway cronyism.

Our grandparents knew better. During the presidency of Dwight Eisenhower, the top marginal tax rate was somewhere around 90%.

They did? A deeply fallacious leap into a void. Their parents allowed the acts of 1909 too, and the kids personally paying rates like that is then doubly defective, at least to any so-called conservative. Avenging the system is one of the great, bald-faced flaws of modern conservatism.

Next: I think Bezos is an ass. But if he made his money honestly, then it's not skin off my nose since it is HIS property. Any cronyism on his part - IOW if his business is being treated differently than a small business, then YES, he's not entitled to special treatment and he and his government cronys should be punished.

Amazon just paid no tax. Therefore: enormous dittos for that sentiment for it is correct.

Close to 50% of American citizens pay NO Federal income tax. They need to have a little skin in the game.

50% too many. Skin-in-the-game too frequently becomes your-(tax)-papers-please,-citizen, and there again the right risks getting it thunderously wrong. The corporate agency is to pay tax. And no, let's spare ourselves the zero-sum, passed-costs argument for it is just as ill-reasoned.

I'd love to see repeal of the 16th amendment. The Feds got along fine without it for 133 years.

Exactly that. We've a spending problem we simply will not address.

Adam

Paler, paleo. Twiddledee Twiddledum. More white men imposing themselves on the world without permission from those whom they oppress by their existence.

Pogonip

Hi Ten: why do you feel that collecting taxes from Jeff Bezos, as opposed to collecting them from any other citizen, is “avenging the plebes”?

Pogonip

Hi ACToldfart,’
Kazoospeak was and is a joke, I wasn’t really planning to include it. For one thing, Grandma had no advice on Kazoospeak because she was blessed never to have heard it. Although she saw a lot of movies wheah the female performahs dropped theah “r”s.

I think I will talk about safety. One thing Grandma did say is “Don’t get falling-down drunk when with a bunch of men you don’t know.” That idea seems to have been forgotten. And a surprising number of people don’t know how to use a fire extinguisher.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

The strange joyless world of Mr. George Moonbat

To no one's surprise, he didn't actually read the Lancet paper he cites which is full of that which the cow pastures are full, and I don't mean the cows.

Welfare losses due to pollution are estimated to amount to US$4·6 trillion per year: 6·2% of global economic output.

The US GBP as of September 2018 was 21 Trillion*, but that it accounts for over 25% of the US GNP is a number pulled from someone's nether regions.

Regardless of junk such as that,

Changes to the distribution of pollution-related diseases occur in response to the changes that accompany development.11 Thus deaths from pneumonia and diarrhoeal diseases—the diseases associated with household air pollution, water pollution, and poor sanitation—are slowly declining worldwide, although they still kill millions of people, particularly children in poor countries.

The word doing the heavy lifting is "associated". Pneumonia and diarrheal diseases are infectious, and yes, with a broad brush, crapping in the well is "pollution" but the solution for pollution is dilution, or generating an infrastructure that allows for toilets and proper sewerage**, but that requires some level of industrialization which is, of course evil.

In 2015, the greatest numbers of deaths due to pollution occurred in southeast Asia (3·2 million deaths) and the western Pacific (2·2 million deaths; figure 8).42 In this definition, southeast Asia includes India and the western Pacific region includes China.

92% of all pollution-related mortality is seen in low-income and middle-income countries, with the greatest numbers of deaths from pollution-related disease occurring in rapidly developing and industrialising lower-middle-income countries"

So not a first world problem, which is we in that world need to give up cars and reliable electricity. Got it.

Successful strategies rely on a mix of primary prevention approaches that eliminate pollution at source, coupled with downstream pollution control technologies, such as filters and stack scrubbers, that remove pollutants from the waste stream after they have already been formed.

Which means bugger all to the guy whose main source of air pollution is not industrial (because they have no industry) but from cooking and heating by buring wood or dried dung in an unventillated hut.

I won't bore you with the whole thing, it is mainly leftist boilerplate .

To advance environmental justice and reduce the inequitable exposure of the poor and the marginalised, countries must develop legal mechanisms that provide recourse for environmental injustice...First, we recommend funding of research to document and map the disproportionate effects of pollution upon the poor, women, and girls be adopted as a priority by international health agencies.

Screw the men, eh ?

Back to Mr. Moonbat...

Wars are fought to keep down the cost of driving: hundreds of thousands died in Iraq partly for this purpose.

That is enough to discredit anything he says.

In the US, it’s even worse: a 51% rise in the annual death rate of pedestrians since 2009.

In real epidemiological numbers, the change is from around a rate (a proxy for risk) of 1.3/100,000 to 1.9/100,000, not accounting for an increase in miles driven (which would drive up the rate), which, in in this case as the numbers killed are an estimate anyway, is statistically meaningless.

I am really starting to get a visceral dislike to the purveyors of this garbage.

*According to the Oxford English Dictionary an UK trillion now is same same as a US trillion, whether the authors meant that is unknown.
**John Snow waves hello with the Broad Street pump handle. Those of you in the UK can go to "The John Snow" in Soho and have a pint in his honor.

David

One for the ladies, I think:

The less you carry, the further you travel. Perhaps it makes us think more about what’s important.

From the Guardian’s lifestyle pages.

Ten

why do you feel that collecting taxes from Jeff Bezos, as opposed to collecting them from any other citizen, is “avenging the plebes”?

I don't believe I did. As for plebian appeals for progressive taxation in the name of fairness, there we have it.

Sam

Late to the thread, but @Pogonip

I'm having my first daughter in [checks watch] about 3 weeks, and am growing ever more concerned about just how I will teach her to be a good woman in [current year]. I figure I'll start with teaching her to be a good human, but let's not kid ourselves - there are gender-specific lessons that are ignored at her and my peril. I am very interested in the book you're pitching.

So, that's one preorder at least.

Pogonip

Congratulations, Sam, and when I do write the book, you get a free copy as a belated baby gift!

(I may never get rich, but at least Sam’s daughter will know how to work a fire extinguisher.)

Sam

Sam’s daughter will know how to work a fire extinguisher.

And field strip an AR15, likely learned by osmosis.

@Ten

And no, let's spare ourselves the zero-sum, passed-costs argument for it is just as ill-reasoned.

Sorry, nope, not letting that one slide so easy. Businesses (which is what most - not you, but most - people mean when they say "corporations") do not pay income taxes any more than they pay sales or property taxes. Consumers do. Don't believe it? Next time you're charged sales tax on an item tell the business that you don't wish to feel the burden and that it was intended for them. Let me know how it goes.

Amazon didn't pay taxes, you say? Well, grab the pitchforks and let's lynch that dirty S.O.B.! What, it's a mythical entity, you say? Well, who owns it? Did those SOB's pay taxes on their K1's? Yes, you say? Well, at least we can write off these pitchforks. Oh shit, we've avoided taxes! We've stared into the abyss and become part of it!

Cut spending. Zero out all federal taxes. Cut spending. Institute national sales tax (least of all evils IMO). Cut spending. Remove regulatory obstacles to business creation. Cut spending.

Ten

Entertaining rant, Sam, but save for the Fair Tax, that stuff is precisely the right's zero sum myth. Too many conservatives are blithely, even deliberately immune to the obvious fact this isn't about either net income or federal revenues, both of which remain fundamentally neutral either way, because it's about liberties.

What shouldn't "slide" is the terribly mistaken notion that in a corporatocracy that writes the laws - to give it something between 6% and zero effective tax rate, among scores others - individual conservatives have some bizarre responsibility to "capitalism" to exempt its oligarchs, shriek instead at the left's welfare state, and sit on their hands for another hundred years. Because: "skin in the game".

The myth of sacred commerce - which is anything but sacred - spawned the zero sum self-deception. Replacing the boardroom with any one Bezos perpetuates it.

Governor Squid

Back in the late 80s/early 90s, I worked in an upscale kitchenware store in Philadelphia, and had the good fortune of meeting several of the PBS chefs when they came to our shop to do book signings. Martin Yan was a lovely man, though his trademark smile began to look a bit plastic by the end of the afternoon. Jeff Smith was suffering with a cold, and was owly and not much fun to work with as a result. Nathalie Dupree was really sweet to us all, virtually indistinguishable from her television persona.

But the best of them all was Justin Wilson. He showed up in a cream-colored linen suit, looking for all the world like a parish judge. He charmed the socks off of everybody, posing for pictures and carrying on with the ladies like they were the center of the universe. He pinched more than a few bottoms while he was at it, and the old devil got away with it every time, with nothing more than a squeak and a half-hearted swat and a "why you!" directed at him, when a lesser man might have gotten walloped with a purse. Truly a prince among men.

My mom has a shelf full of autographed cookbooks, most of them including really lovely inscriptions. Not the sort of thing you might think about when taking a job selling pots and pans and knives. (At the time, I was just happy to come home smelling like a coffee bean instead of a deep fryer.)

Sam

Commerce is as "sacred" as any other property rights in my book - ie very. Individual's rights to transact with one another are "sacred" regardless of the dollar amounts involved.

I think we agree here and though I like your comments I admit I struggle to parse the actionable recommendations contained therein.

For instance:

the corporatocracy that writes the laws

So we agree that overreaching govt is the main issue, with who calls the shots becoming increasingly problematic as govt power grows? That's not exempting oligarchs from my POV. And I'm too dense to figure out your preferred policies that would properly reign in oligarchs.

because it's about liberties

I'm usually out of my league around here in terms of clearly expressing my views but personal liberties were the basis of my rant. I urge proper understanding of our (US) tax code and both it's direct and indirect effects on not only revenue collection but the relationship between citizen and state. Ignoring where the true burden of taxation falls is not helpful to that end.

[conservatives] shriek instead at the left's welfare state

Perhaps, but I spread my shrieking around...err...liberally. Hence my very subtle recommendations of "fuck you, cut spending" and cutting all but the "fairest" of taxation.

prm

@Pogonip

Also due a daughter (in July), so count another pre-order here. Seriously, it's easy to talk about writing a book but why not knock one out in a couple of months and stick it on Amazon. You can update once it's up and all that. I'll add it to my collection of homeschooling ebooks.

Ten

Fine and good, Sam, but the right can't even think about reform without heading the list of problems with the words taxation and monetization.

Ha.

Instead of that it actually defends the corporatist, debt-addled, insolvent status quo in emotional incantations involving richest nation ever and capitalism and that clanky old fallacy, transferred costs.

Speaking of lists, the right should be made to jot down a long compilation of its favored statisms and memorize them.

WTP
I'd love to see repeal of the 16th amendment. The Feds got along fine without it for 133 years.

Exactly that. We've a spending problem we simply will not address.

Pretty much every amendment after the 15th could go as far as I'm concerned. But yes, we have a spending problem. But to Sam's point, it does not matter who or what gets taxes so long as the government overspends. As Sam points out, the taxes paid by "business" are simply passed along to consumers. To understand taxes and such you need to stop thinking in terms of money but instead in terms of productive work done. By the time the taxes are collected, the damage has already been done. The government has, for better or worse, already consumed the resources previously produced by the time it has spent them. Government, nor any entity, cannot consume resources that have not already been produced. Sorry...I repeat myself when I'm distressed...

Again similar to Sam's point, imagine a law is passed where only half the people now paying taxes have their taxes doubled and the other half pay no taxes whatsoever. Do you really believe that those producing the things being consumed would continue to work for the same payment as they were doing before? Hell, no. They would either raise their prices, a tax on the consumers that they do not "see", or they go out of business or do something else, which is a burden (tax) on those consumers who no longer have goods/services that they previously desired available to them. These tax schemes (as some congressman once awkwardly said, "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that guy behind the tree") are a distraction from the spending problem. So long as the government spends wealth on useless crap, that wealth is gone. No magic will make it come back. It had already been produced by someone and now it's gone. If no one paid any taxes, we all would in the sense it would come out of our pockets in inflation. It's all the same in the aggregate.

Pogonip

Not to worry, WTP, they’ll stay if they have to pay their taxes. They know no other industrialized country would give them anything close to the virtually free ride they’re getting here. And they can’t threaten to move all the work to Malaysia because they’ce already done that.

Well, I’m off to do some research, first, how tp paginate on a computer. On the old word processors it was easy: Name/Title/“Page Number” In Parentheses typed as “Header.” The WP would automatically number every page after that.

Pogonip

Thanks, PRM, and congratulations$

WTP

Not to worry, WTP, they’ll stay if they have to pay their taxes

I think you're missing the point.

Fred Streeter

@Pogonip

Hi,

Thanks for the Alibris tip.
They have a seller in the UK.

Still only the single volume offered, but, even if it doesn't cover Donora, it looks an interesting read.

LancastrianOik

Pretty much every amendment after the 15th could go as far as I'm concerned.

Very interesting, all this arcane constitutional stuff.

I seem to recall a Woody Allen routine where he said that, after getting arrested "... Of course, I was very nervous, so instead of pleading the fifth amendment, I went with the sixth. That meant that I didn't have the right to remain silent, but I could buy beer in Philadelphia on Sundays".

Ten

As Sam points out, the taxes paid by "business" are simply passed along to consumers...

This strange, immortal canard is typically left incomplete - it's a free-standing conclusion intended to govern all assumed conditions and thereby Protect Business Against Evil. As such the logical disconnect is substantial.

It's also instantly refuted by:

-net personal income in any tax neutral plan; say, the Fair Tax
-net federal revenues, pursuant that plan or another
-real work product in a debt economy, which work is not actually primary to the monetary policy creating that debt
-liberty (which here the right inevitably sacrifices)
-eventual federal (in)solvency, which is the status quo

Yet this unholy Transferred Cost of Business is repeated as the cant and dogma of Concerned Citizens, who's businesses would, in the face of nearly any adjustment to the corporatocratic status quo, invariably:

...either raise their prices, a tax on the consumers that they do not "see", or they go out of business or do something else, which is a burden (tax) on those consumers who no longer have goods/services that they previously desired available to them.

Right, because where would Cuba be, for example, without the parts aftermarket for old Chevies.

To understand taxes and such you need to stop thinking in terms of money but instead in terms of productive work done.

This strange incantation is issued in the land of endless monetization, unpaid debt, and the runaway system that depends on both.

No, to understand taxes and money obviously you must stop thinking in terms of "productive" work done and instead in terms of the paper chase. Put another way, the laser eye the ostensible right has for Protecting Business obviously depends on some modicum of common sense. That zero-sum kernel lives by it. Why our same traditionalist then refuses to grasp the simplicity of money and debt - with taxation as an adjunct - is a mystery. It's certainly no more complicated. The fealty to brokenness is a sorry thing.

Governor Squid

Some U. S. states are flirting w/the sensible idea of just staying on fast time year round.

The term 'a.m.' literally means "before the sun reaches the southernmost part of its arc," which is to say, the point when the Sun is halfway through its daily transit of the sky. If Congress, or Her Majesty's Government, or the ISO, or even Baghdad Bob insist on setting noon to some other celestial marker, then I really must insist that they also ditch the 'a.m.' and 'p.m.' labels.

Turns out that the gaslighting nonsense we've been observing of late is not new. Leave it to our overlords in the government to insist that five hours after the sun rises, and seven hours before the sun sets, is the definition of "midday."

WTP

Don't know why you have a problem with everlasting ducks, but back atcha. You are completely ignoring my point about money. Who pays taxes and what those taxes are is irrelevant to the work performed/effort put forward to generate the wealth consumed. A bureaucrat in a pointless agency, a snowflake studies instructor, any person who consumes resources because they were paid money by the federal or whatever government may pay money in taxes but in reality pays nothing in real taxes if the "work" that they do is for naught. They're just a different kind of freeloaders who have allowed themselves to be fooled into thinking they're contributing because they're being "taxed". This is why the spending is the issue, not the taxes.

Right, because where would Cuba be, for example, without the parts aftermarket for old Chevies.

Right where Cuba is now. How do those parts get there? Who, outside or even to some degree inside of Cuba, has any use for Cuban currency? What's your point?

This strange incantation is issued in the land of endless monetization, unpaid debt, and the runaway system that depends on both.

You know, you're almost there but then you disappear into mumbojumbo. The monetization, the unpaid debt are not what the system, any economic system, depends on. Those are the (useful or not) illusions that distract from the actual burden that the useless departments of government lay upon the working, productive elements of society. This isn't to say that money, fiat or not, is bad or is not useful. It's sole purpose however is to provide a means of transforming wealth from one incarnation into another. When used as a means of understanding economic value, etc. money is a huge distraction.

Pogonip

How do they calculate income tax rates in Britain?

I just did my first set of photographs, for the old Glitter-B-Gone trick. I feel very author-ish. 😃

Sam

Alas, Ten, I keep trying to parse your potential solutions and only see the Fair Tax - which I support - and therefore am unable to see where we actually differ in terms of govt policy prescriptions. I cannot speak for "the Right" but I am not keen on protecting business, per se, but rather individual liberty. Liberties that includes the right to buy and sell. The same liberties threatened by socialists, mega-businesses in bed with govt, and busybody curtain-twitchers* alike.

I'm a simple man, so please keep it simple: other than instituting the Fair Tax and the scrapping of other federal taxation that the FT necessitates, what policies do you suggest that will rein in the corporate oligarchy and Protect Citizens?

*h/t Hector Drummond

Pogonip

David, can you please poke a long stick through the bars of the spam filter’s cage? It ate one of mine.

David

There’s nothing in the filter.

Steve E

The term 'a.m.' literally means "before the sun reaches the southernmost part of its arc,

Yes and prior to the introduction of international standard time noon differed by 1-minute for every 18 km travelled east or west. Imagine having to adjust your watch as you travel in order to keep time current with the sun. It could and did lead to considerable confusion. Sanford Fleming, a Scottish-born Canadian is thought to have come up with the idea of international standard time zones after spending the night in a railway station because he missed his train due to confusion over the time.

Darleen

As Sam points out, the taxes paid by "business" are simply passed along to consumers...

This strange, immortal canard is typically left incomplete - it's a free-standing conclusion intended to govern all assumed conditions and thereby Protect Business Against Evil. As such the logical disconnect is substantial.

I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say. Do you know anyone that owns/runs their own business? My father ran his own small advertising agency for 25 years and taxes owed were treated as an operating expense, like supplies, rent, etc. They have to be treated that way in order to assess just how much one is going to charge clients/customers.

The only relationship Government should have to business is to make sure all trade is as voluntary as possible and to provide a forum (courts, law enforcement) to settle disputes when it is not.

Business are not evil OR good. They are nothing more than modes of trade. If my impression that you find them unsavory and worthy only of being soaked by The State as much as possible, please disabuse me.

Darleen

I listened to the socialist Democrats shiny new object, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez trying to ramble through what she thought of "Capitalism". In her word salad she kept saying things like "capital puts profit first" when other priorities should reign.

Which, I came away with the old Socialist shame mo:

Socialist: Money isn't everything
Also Socialist: Give us all your money

Pogonip

Oh, then an Internet hiccup ate my remark. What I said was, I had just taken my first pictures, of the old Glitter-Be-Gone trick, and felt very author-ish.

Since I started here, in this humble bar, I’ll donate 5% net profit, if there is any, to this blog, so let’s all pray for good exchange rates for David.

Grumble du jour: once a week, Son indulges in Burger King “chicken” nuggets. (They’re chicken like pickled “eggs” are eggs.). So I pick them up and the clerk had long curling red-lacquered fingernails! I will say he was doing a good job of upkeep, so chipped polish would not flake off in food, but still, long claws, no matter what color they are, and food service do not mix!

Governor Squid

I understand the need for standardized time zones so that a 12:30 conference call is possible between people in different cities, and that it might mean that official "noon" differs from my own solar noon by a half hour. What I don't understand is why official "noon" should be legislated to be 90 minutes too early, for no damn reason besides the thrill of gaslighting.

P.S. I had the pleasure of visiting Greenwich a few years back. As the Empire was on Summer Time, I made sure to arrive at "noon" just so I could observe the confusion of tourists who could not figure out why their shadows didn't line up with the Meridian. (I was pleased to find myself in the company of a handful of other soulless jerks who were similarly moved to come laugh at the masses.) Greenwich is wonderful -- as a sailor, a scientist, and a drinker, I found that the town had everything I could need!

Darleen

Son indulges in Burger King “chicken” nuggets

At the risk of going back down the cookbook/foodie trail again, has your son tried Chick-fil-a? Or, even better, Raising Cane?

Ten

You are completely ignoring my point about money.

Nothing to ignore, sadly. You limited the proceedings to a notion about what approximately constitutes Real Work I think so as to tie it to taxes and vice-versa. A grossly simplified, subjective, one-axis formulation.

As any valid economist knows, that's just not the economy. Need proof the so-called work economy is a fiction? Move the Fed basis a fraction of a point and check back in the morning, if not later in the day. Do it a few times and check back in six months.

You didn't make a point. You cast a wish. The workings remain a mystery.

Ten

I'm with you, Sam, and as far as we go there's no disagreement. I just advise that Conservatives stop tacitly admitting - and then demanding - that the economy is essentially tied to tax policy without which the whole thing descends into bread lines.

Pogonip

He doesn’t like Chick-Fil-A, which, I guess, proves his brain is damaged. 😄. We don’t have Raising Cane around here.

Ten

Do you know anyone that owns/runs their own business?

Sure, me, but is that intentionalism or the zero sum thing asking?

If my impression that you find them unsavory and worthy only of being soaked by The State as much as possible, please disabuse me.

Hardly, but again, that's irrelevant, isn't it? "Conservatives" simply require that Skin In The Game obligates the individual for the federal tax burden - terminal debt aside for a moment - in order to, as it was just said, prevent business failing en masse and then there being none left, or thereabouts. The problems with this are rife and obvious.

Darleen

Jaysus on a Pony, Ten, can you answer a simple question without going off and imitating Professor Irwin Corey?

Yes or no ... are business taxes considered part of expenses?

If "yes" then do you agree that a rise in expense to the business = increased cost to the client of the business

If "no", demonstrate how that works. And I'd refer you to the reports of businesses who, now having to pay less in taxes, have 1) raised salaries of employees 2) given employees businesses 3) put money into expansion or upgrades

Darleen

ARGH

should be "2) given employees bonuses"

WTP

As any valid economist knows, that's just not the economy. Need proof the so-called work economy is a fiction? Move the Fed basis a fraction of a point and check back in the morning, if not later in the day. Do it a few times and check back in six months.

Am I the only one amused to see this argument entwined with the one about DST, especially Squid's comments regarding noon? Bit of a stretch, true. But I'm easily(?) amused. But to the point...

Moving the Fed basis around simply mucks up the perceived value of the dollars that were in play up until that moment. I'm not a gold standard fanatic but there is a significant point to concerns about the fiat-ness of fiat currency. Which somewhat ironically I think you understand as well. Which puzzles me as to why you seem to be making the argument that money is the economy. As I stated above, money is a tool for converting one form of wealth into another. That the government mucks around with the supply of the stuff only has bearing on the economy in the sense that everyone holding money gets screwed at the point that new fiat is printed.

Look, let's say you and I exist on a deserted island where I harvest coconuts and raise pigs and you tend to chickens and collect honey. We come to some agreement, based on a constant number of whompum beads that a coconut is worth 1 whompum, a pig 30 whompum, eggs 5 whompum, and honey 20 whompum. We have traded these items for months and pretty much agree on this exchange as "fair". If I secretly find a stash of whompum beads that you don't know about that doubles the number of whompum, I can rip you off for a little while until you get wise. True, trust is lost, but we gotta trade so we eventually just double the price of everything. There is impact in the sense that I ripped you off for a bit because I got to the new supply of whompum first. But that only made me richer and you poorer while on the whole, the supply of goods on the island remained the same. Until you find a rooster to fertilize your chickens or my pigs come down with swine flu or some other factor kicks in. Now Keynesians would try to argue otherwise of course, to say that the whompum somehow made your chickens fertile, but that's because they are ripping us off by playing with the money supply.

WTP

OK, just seeing this:

I just advise that Conservatives stop tacitly admitting - and then demanding - that the economy is essentially tied to tax policy without which the whole thing descends into bread lines.

That is my point as well. Tax policy is crap. It's the spending that is the problem.

Chester Draws

Jaysus on a Pony, Ten, can you answer a simple question without going off and imitating Professor Irwin Corey?

I think the answer to that is "no". But it's a lot harder to pick apart an argument if it is laid out clearly and succinctly.

Ten, I have no idea whether you are wrong or right in this discussion, because I have no idea what you are saying.

APL

Is it just me, or is Ten channeling our long lost commentator Minnow? The long winded, impossible to pin down, cryptic semi-answers to everything seem to scream little bait fish.

Hal

Well, I’m off to do some research, first, how tp paginate on a computer.

OpenOffice or LibreOffice should be of help.

Quite recommended, and rather much easier than trying to outguess MS, et al. as far as what to get and for how much . . . . I don't have a particular preference m'self, have been able to use either for ages, albeit have tended to run OO.

And certainly being the immense improvement over mere, poor, WordimPerfect . . .

WTP

Is it just me, or is Ten channeling our long lost commentator Minnow?

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I don't think Ten disagrees with much that is said here in principle, he just has a way of obfuscating and agreeing in a disagreeable manner about tactics...I think. I'd say he's more like the ying to a certain other yang who has a way of drawing attention to himself by disagreeing with the general agreement while pretending not to be disagreeable....ok, i've edited that three times and I still don't know wtf I'm trying to say myself. But dammit, I'm invested in this comment now...so there you go...

Not to change the subject but is it just my observation or has Sherman been AWOL for a while?

Ten

Jaysus on a Pony, Ten, can you answer a simple question without going off...

Can I somehow not reject the faulty premise freighted with your demand, do you mean. I doubt it.

Can you grasp how simple the real issue is: Whether costs factor into prices is not only risibly simplistic, it ignores all the greater problems with the status quo.

I'm aware of your shtick. Can you really not grasp what the problem is or do you just prefer to argue?

Ten

That is my point as well.

Given the rambling aside on some abbreviated and irrelevant theory of tangible value at WTP | March 11, 2019 at 20:37 one has their doubts. No, initially this has nothing to do with such unpopular things as an undebauchable coin.

Tax policy is crap. It's the spending that is the problem.

Both true. But neither terminal problem is lessened one iota by effectively making it a central pillar of commerce with the wage-earning individual its obligor. We're not all going to die if that burden is shifted, thus putting everybody out of business

So. Do we really think profligate debt is (something something) lasting solvency and prosperity because (something something) personal obligation?

Anyway, now that the locals have lit their torches again I'm out. Funny how opposition to such a simple and clearly originalist tenet actually becomes impacted when its purported conservative trustees find themselves on the wrong side of it.

Ten

Also:

That is my point as well.

It certainly wasn't the point you wrote: You expounded on the grave dangers of passing expenses to sellers. Specifically:

...either raise their prices, a tax on the consumers that they do not "see", or they go out of business or do something else, which is a burden (tax) on those consumers who no longer have goods/services that they previously desired available to them.

WTP

Given the rambling aside on some abbreviated and irrelevant theory of tangible value at WTP | March 11, 2019 at 20:37 one has their doubts. No, initially this has nothing to do with such unpopular things as an undebauchable coin.

It was you who brought the Fed into it. I'm simply (ok, not so simply) saying that the Fed is not the economy. As for you to suggest that I'm rambling...seriously? Half the time no one here has any idea wtf you're trying to get at. I at least took a stab at guessing on some of this as I vaguely think I know where you're coming from. But then you obfuscate the hell out of everything and can't even answer simple yes/no questions put to you by others. Though speaking of obfuscation, I'm thinking there should be a Code 9010. If anyone gets my drift yet.

You expounded on the grave dangers of passing expenses to sellers. Specifically:

Those aren't grave dangers, they're just the reality of doing business. As Darleen states above, a tax is simply another expense. Raise the minimum wage and if I'm employing minimum wage workers I will have a decision to make. Get rid of some and make other people work harder or more efficiently, raise my prices to cover the higher cost, or go out of business. Sure I can eat some of that cost myself as well but that has a cost. I'm in whatever business I'm in for a reason. At some point if expenses rise and I can't work around that, it makes no sense for me to continue with the business. I fold up and go work for someone else. Or go into another business. But no matter which path, the consumer is impacted in the end such that quality drops due to new stresses or costs rise or the business ceases to be. All of those things are a cost, yes partly on the business, but on all of the other entities as well. Especially the consumer. The consumer may not feel it as intensely as the tax will be spread among all of his other suppliers/providers. But it's there. It doesn't just disappear. As a supplier I set my costs as low as possible to attract as much business as possible to make as much profit as possible. An increase in any cost, and again to Darleen's valid observation a tax is another cost, impacts me somewhere. Otherwise someone else would have my customers.

lotocoti

On a lighter note, I believe the younger set call this pwnage.

pst314

On another lighter note: "These $150 USB cables will noticeably improve the audio quality of the internet radio output."

Farnsworth M Muldoon

Air in the US is racist.

Junior

Page 265 of JoC got me through college. And let's be completely honest, still gets me through Saturday mornings with the proto-rapists. Their insatiable hunger for pancakes probably marks them as oppressors of some sort.

Pogonip

I have a lot of various brands of cosmetics because I subscribe to ipsy.com, and earlier today I did some product testing. I found that our old reliable GBG principle will no longer work with many brands. Evidently the makeup Mafia, the dirty bastards, figured out that if they saturated the powder with glitter rather than just spraying it on the top, they might force us to buy the glitter AND the matte if we really liked the color. 😡. Grrr.

GBG still works on Avon, Maybelline, and Cover Girl—for now.

I did have fun feeling authorial while product testing, at least till I came to a really pretty bronze with circus-horse-rider sparliness added. Son of Pogonip could literally see it across the room. Double grrr. 😡😡. Allons, mesdames! To China and the factory barricades!

Pogonip

Hey, did we find out if Sherman’s OK? I hope so.

TimT

If you've read your way through the entire Encyclopaedia of Tie Knots and know your way around a Balthus and a Co-half-Windsor, this may be your next step.

Darleen

I'm aware of your shtick

::::sigh:::: as I am of yours. There is no communication if two people can't agree on basic means of communication and definitions. I asked very simple questions to see if we couldn't find a common language and go from there. You have no desire to engage in good faith debate, only scoring points with arcane language designed to obfuscate, not clarify.

Clarity before agreement. Something you appear to have no interest in.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

...this may be your next step.

Other than a tuxedo or dress uniform, outside of a clown show there is never a reason to wear a bow tie...

Lucas Temple

I just can't seem to get over the obvious ironic fact that's she assuming the gender of every "man" she plans on walking into for this game.

I repeat, she's assuming someone's gender all for a game! The horror - and I'm horrified.

Pogonip

Well, there was that guy on Fox News who wore bow ties and made millions...

pst314

Well, there was that guy on Fox News who wore bow ties and made millions...

That's a lot of bow ties.

Ten

Posted by: Darleen | March 12, 2019 at 03:44

Such intellectual dishonesty. You kicked over the furniture making demands backed up by that manufactured outrage shtick and now you stand behind false civility. Appeals to the authority of private standards appear to be stock in trade over there.

The point is and was the right's unquestioning fealty to corporate cronyism - to corporatism, even to the point of asserting that without aspects of it business would fail. This is called capitalism.

Again: Do you honestly expect false premises to pass unnoticed? Or do you eventually get the argument you want by requiring them twice?

Ten

It was you who brought the Fed into it.

I brought monetary policy into it, WTP. Obviously it's by far the primary determinant of commerce and what we call an economy. Or does the Fed mint gold coin, WTP, and should we follow that thread of yours?

As for you to suggest that I'm rambling...seriously?

Oh quite. Just look at it all the proud theorizing. And so broad.

Half the time no one here has any idea wtf you're trying to get at. I at least took a stab at guessing on some of this as I vaguely think I know where you're coming from.

Not quite so hard on the locals, WTP, after all I'm keeping it simple, although some assembly is naturally required. But it doesn't need spoon-feeding, does it?

But then you obfuscate the hell out of everything and can't even answer simple yes/no questions put to you by others.

Nonsense. Your insights are harbingers of greatness to come, I'm sure. Let's not be victims of ourselves.

Those aren't grave dangers, they're just the reality of doing business.

Well, no they're not, are they. They're artificial, rejiggled aspects of an economy whose bottom line remains completely unchanged when those customary flows are rerouted to where they should lie, isn't that right. Business doesn't really disappear, does it, and the great engine of commerce - a rightist term - actually revs a little freer when they're corrected. And then we have the personal benefits, the point of it all. Any conservatives here?

Maybe not. It all invariably condenses into this next furor (repeated five times, as if for emphasis or an almost involuntary show of ignorance against An Obfuscator):

As Darleen states above, a tax is simply another expense.

And tires are round, WTP. Who cares? (I brace for impact as trained corporatists ready their one cronyist arrow.) It nets the same, see, and that's not even the point ostensible constitutionalists should pay mind to (but for all the Obfuscating, probably).

Raise the minimum wage and if I'm employing minimum wage workers I will have a decision to make.

And? Is the minimum wage a component of free markets or is this just an effective canard, you sly dog.

At some point if expenses rise and I can't work around that, it makes no sense for me to continue with the business. [Subsequent rudimentary fallacy on convenience store costs snipped.]

Such a dilemma, managing all these Market Forces. Back to the point: When the cost of goods rises to normalized market float and consumers, enriched by liberty from personal taxation, carry on exactly as before, we don't actually have waves of bankruptcies because something something prevented only by - viola! - an enormously manipulated debt and tax economy. (By the way are you familiar with the term FIRE economy? You verged on it, thankfully, and it also applies...)

Kindly inspect your stuff to see how rational and relevant it is and thanks in advance. Meanwhile, there we have it, once again sufficiently unobfuscated.

Greg Allan

@Farnsworth M Muldoon

"bafflegab"!

Lovely word. Lids dipped in the antipodes.

Ten

The myth of the corporate tax relationship, exploded.

https://econimica.blogspot.com/2018/12/who-benefits-from-low-corporate-taxation.html

False capitalism is one of the right's Achilles Heels.

Toxteth O'Grady

c.f. Manslamming, a less tractable cousin of manspreading

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