David Thompson
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July 13, 2019

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Jen

“Labour Party. Socialist. Teacher.”

In that order.

David

They could at least be honest about what it is they’re selling.

Bloke in North Dorset

Of course sending your son to private school is OK for the left, because reasons such as Diane pointing out a West Indian mother will do everything for her son. (Or words to that effect, I can’t be bothered looking up the quote)

[+]

doing one’s best for one’s own children - in contravention of “social justice”

That.

David

That.

It’s quite a thing to see Mighty Thinkers Of The Left just blurting it out, proudly, at least to each other. Such that parental affection and “functional family interactions” are flagged as suspect, as “unfair advantages,” along with the reading of bedtime stories. Because, and I quote,

Parents reading their children bedtime stories… are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children.

As if competent parenting were something to atone for.

Karen M

As if competent parenting were something to atone for.

They always level down.

David

Not entirely unrelated,

Contra Lewis, the differences between pregnancy and surrogacy go far beyond remuneration, given that most mothers and fathers love their children and are dedicated to their children’s interests. But Lewis dislikes the idea that biological parents have a special attachment to their own progeny. She dismisses the importance of genetics, pointing out that parents' genes are “scrambled” in their newborn child. Yet the material constituents being “scrambled” are still important. Moreover, there is a mystical connection between parent and child, expressed throughout history, literature, art, and almost every indigenous cosmology. All those artists, writers, philosophers and—above all—mothers and fathers were and are wrong, Lewis says. They need a reproductive communist to tell them what they really feel.

Ben Sixsmith gives feminist “theorist” Sophie Lewis the rhetorical spanking she deserves.

David

Ms Lewis and her unhappy mind have been mentioned here before:

So far as I can tell, and despite Ms Lewis’ theorising, mothers-to-be don’t generally feel a need to parse their pregnancy in terms of “abolishing the private nuclear household” and “global regimes of colonial and commodity exploitation.” Or indeed to champion abortion, via drugs or dismemberment, as a form of “anti-violence.” But that’s probably because – to borrow a phrase from Joan - they haven’t been tugging on the intersectional crack pipe.

Again, the moral analogue of bone cancer.

Ten

right

Snort. Small persons are plainly the proud product thereof.

I’m not sure this chap understands the intrinsic motivations of evolution and parenting.

No offense, Tim, but not nearly enough of us chaps understand the intrinsic motivations of force.

“State education is generally sub-optimal and often shockingly bad. Let’s make sure that’s all there is available.”

We've all made so much progress.

pst314

“State education is generally sub-optimal and often shockingly bad. Let’s make sure that’s all there is available.”

But of course there will always be superior education available to the children of the Party elite...which is something that vermin like socialist Robert Poole are counting on.

Duke

Part of what motivated me to do better and 'move on up to the East side', was that I couldn't stand the company of simple-minded, low-achieving communists.

Most of them are poor and and bitchy and totally believe the bullshit they are being fed buy the handful of very rich communist 'leaders' who tell them that being rich is evil and that they should remain poor so as not to be evil. Yeah, it's that simple and that stupid.

Steve E

Socialism, Marxism, Communism seek to bring everyone to the same level--the lowest level. If everyone can't be transcendant, then everyone must be miserable...misery loves company.

Eccles

But of course there will always be superior education available to the children of the Party elite..

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/04/finlandisation-is-there-really-a-case-fro-comprehensive-schools-.html

The bright child of a poor home, whose parents know little of schooling and perhaps care less, will seldom if ever penetrate through this thicket of trickery and self-aggrandisement to the best state secondary schools. And yet the enemies of grammar schools defend this system of secret knowledge, privilege and (often) false piety, as being fairer than open selection by ability. Perhaps that is because it is fairer to them, personally. Perhaps it is because it allows them to obtain all the advantages of the old grammar schools, while not in any way challenging the egalitarian comprehensive system or threatening their political or media careers. All parents are equal, but some are a lot more equal than others.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2010/01/those-church-schools-again.html

I had an amusing exchange with Cherie Blair over this, when I suggested that the Blairs were seeking to avoid the comprehensive system which they wished to impose on everyone else. She sent me a lawyers' letter saying that the London Oratory was a comprehensive school. I eventually agreed that it was - but in the same way that 10 Downing Street is an inner-city terraced house.

David

but in the same way that 10 Downing Street is an inner-city terraced house.

Heh. Rather like how Zoe Williamssupposedly ‘comprehensive’ education entailed grade II listed buildings, nine science labs, and educational trips to remote parts of the world, including visits to Rome and Morocco and an eight-day tour of Barbados.

See also Arabella Weir, whose idea of bog-standard state schooling is the voluntary-aided Camden School for Girls, where alumnae include Eva Germaine Rimington Taylor and noted proletarian Dame Emma Thompson.

The attempts at deception, or actual delusions, are almost funny.

aelfheld

'What right do you have to disadvantage my child just because you're a feckless git?'

Hal

. . . have you got to give your child an unfair advancers over . . .

I'm not sure this chap understands the intrinsic composition and use of English.

Bill S

But why stop at the border's edge, asks the mother from Sub-Sahara Africa whose child receives no education at all?

What right have you to educate your child when mine receives none?

The leftest answers: you are correct, this is my white priviledge speaking. We need to open our borders and provide an education for all children.

And this is how California's public education system became one of the worst in the developed world!

Nikw211

What right have you to give your child an unfair advantage over mine simply because you have more money?

Related:

    My closest friends had parents much like mine: most had been educated at the same small collection of public schools and knew each other well from either Oxford or Cambridge and then through their work [ ... ] They made the conscious decision to give their children a radically different childhood from their own. We were sent to the local state schools, where we could mix with children from every walk of life ...

That’s William Miller writing there, in his childhood memoir, Gloucester Crescent. (Miller is one of Jonathan Miller’s children).

    Dad always says [the reason for this decision] is because everyone in Gloucester Crescent votes Labour and that only Tories go to private schools [ … ] I don’t understand that because Mum, Dad and all their friends went to private school and they never stop talking about how great it was and how important it is to get a good education.

The problem with experiments of any kind, of course, is that they tend not to work out very well the first dozen or so times while you try to work out which particular variables need manipulating to get the desired result.

As each child is unique and has only one childhood, this presents something of a problem for trials such as the one the Millers and the other progressive parents living on the same road were trying out.

Inevitably, William goes on

    as we got older many of us found ourselves left behind and struggling to keep up. It began to seem that we’d been part of an experiment driven by their principles, rather than their care.

In fact, what happens to William Miller is that he is bullied so mercilessly by other children at school, some of whom literally threaten to kill him - especially after a brief appearance on a TV documentary written and presented by his father - that he soon becomes agitated, withdrawn, and depressed.

Eventually, unable to cope, he has a kind of breakdown after which he refuses point blank to go back to his state school.

    After so many years of hoping they could make a difference, they’d finally had to agree that the route they had chosen had been something of a failure for their children who had ended up paying the price for their choices.

In the end, Miller’s parents agree to send him to an exclusive private school - albeit one run on progressive principles, called Bedales in Hampshire.

However, having already fallen so far behind in his schooling, at least according to his own account, he is unable to catch up even in the much more pleasant atmosphere of Bedales and fails all of his A levels (his high school leaving / university entrance exams).

A few years later, the producer of the documentary in which William briefly appeared (and which worsened the bullying) sets up his own television production company and offers Wiliam a job as a production assistant (possibly at the prompting of Jonathan Miller, though this is speculation on my part).

Later still, William Miller has become a TV executive in his own right, producing Nigella Lawson. It turns out that he had known Nigella since they were teenagers when Nigella’s mother Vanessa married the Oxford and UCL philosopher A. J. Ayer whose London residence happened to back right onto the Miller’s in the same North London Oxbridge colony and in whose house William used to play as a boy.

Despite the fact that William’s entry into television and subsequent success seem to have relied on more or less the kind of Old School tie-like connections an Old Etonian might even blush at, Jonathan Miller took exception to his son's success because as William explains (my italics):

    I’d chosen a career path that neither he nor his friends fully approved of. Although I’d gone into an industry they were familiar with, I’d joined what they felt was the opposing team: the one on the top floor, who wore suits and ran the business - the Establishment. In their eyes this was somewhat grubby and should be treated with an element of suspicion. We were the ones who stopped people like them from getting on and doing the important and worthwhile things.
pst314

Nikw211: Very interesting. Thank you for posting that.

David

they’d finally had to agree that the route they had chosen had been something of a failure for their children who had ended up paying the price for their choices.

Ah, but there are always more guinea pigs.

pst314

Ah, but there are always more guinea pigs.

Or eggs for omelettes.

Chester Draws

Or eggs for omelettes.

Except they broke the eggs and never made any omlettes.

Having taught in private schools and good state schools, the difference is minimal. You can't really make kids any smarter, nor teachers any better, so the differences often come down to the expectations -- and kids with parents with high expectations do well in good state schools.

The issue is that so many state schools are simply not any good.

The Socialist dream is that if private schools are abandoned, then rich people will have motivation to finance public schools better. But they fall into the old "if we throw more money at it things will improve" fallacy. State schools aren't bad because they are underfunded (except in certain US states). They are bad because they 1) have a difficult clientele, 2) often teach using poor progressive ideals, and 3) aren't able to establish decent discipline.

There are state schools with high disciplinary standards and that avoid progressive ideals that do very well with disadvantaged children. There are state schools with poor discipline and fully into progressive education that do very poorly with rich children. The amount of money given to them makes very little difference.

Darleen

The amount of money given to them makes very little difference.

As you said ... it comes down to expectations. When too many schools are merely warehouses - large daycare centers where some scene from Lord of the Flies is played out on a daily basis.

This is why charter schools scare the bureaucrats and teachers' unions so much. For the most part, all the players in the charter schools come to them with high expectations, not the least of which is rejecting a whole host of public school constraints on teaching and disciplining methods.

And most of them thrive and out-perform public schools, even drawing from the same student pool.

Hopp Singg

What right does a mother have to give her child an unfair advantage by not drinking heavily during pregnancy?

Ten

Simple question: If collectivism is to a large degree inescapable, by what ethic is the state school legitimized?

Why does the right find it so terribly difficult to realize that statism is simple force, meaning intolerance for the leftists in the audience, and an affront to structuralism for the rightists.

And yet here is the free world a century into this overt cultural Marxism, with its children - and its parent's children - as collateral, gently forwarding everything except: the sheer, unmitigated offensiveness of the public institution.

All of them.

Is the academy any less warped than the popular media it produces? Then why is it tolerated? What residual myth or what momentum keeps it afloat?

Ten

And most of them thrive and out-perform public schools, even drawing from the same student pool.

That is highly relevant to the practical problem, and it's completely revealing of its after-effects. But it's not at all relevant to the structural, ethical, philosophical failure of being made to endure it, even if it can perform.

WTP

except in certain US states

Which states are those? We throw money at our school "systems" as well yet the root of the problems over here are pretty much the same three items to which you refer.

Chester Draws

This page gives an average pay per state. https://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

California pays its teachers $69,000. The median wage there is $19.58, so a multiple of just under 3,500 times.
Massachusetts pays its teachers $72,000. The median wage there is $21.38, so a multiple of 3,370.
Colorado pays its teachers $50,000. The median wage there is $18.86, so a multiple of 2,650.
South Dakota pays its teachers $39,000. The median wage there is $14.32, so multiple of 2,700.

So you get paid effectively 25% more to teach in California or Massachusetts than Colorado or South Dakota, doing the same job. (Note, it doesn't matter if they are paid "enough" in South Dakota -- because they can earn more somewhere else, the good ones move.) I know my temptation to move to increase my earnings by 25% without having to do any more work would be quite strong.

Given that there are rural parts of California and Massachusetts, the teachers don't have to give up a rural lifestyle, if that's what they prefer.

The same effect is also seen with other parts of the budget. Some states spend a lot more on buildings, equipment etc. Here's a site which gives by state, allowing for differences in cost: https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/quality-counts-2018-state-finance/map-per-pupil-spending-state-by-state.html

New York, famously profligate and committed to state education, spends twice as much as Florida, famously attempting to destroy public education.

Daniel Ream

Simple question: If collectivism is to a large degree inescapable, by what ethic is the state school legitimized?

You're asking the wrong question. Collectivism is just a mask on authoritarianism. Human beings are tribal social primates and our evolved social structure is a large (~100 people) collection of related kin-groups led by a dominant "alpha" male. That's the general structure all human societies will fall into by default. Fascism, Communism, socialism, populism, they're all just veils over top of the underlying drive by ambitious people to seize power and lead the tribe, and the rest of the tribe to follow them.

Fred the Fourth

David's remarks above at 16:06 reminded me of a rant I constructed in my head after hearing a bit of today's Wimbledon coverage. To wit - a remark by one commentator that the players extra tennis rackets were no longer supplied covered in a plastic bag, and that this was part of Wimbledon's new Sustainability Initiative (or words to that effect).

Meanwhile, I'm looking at an arena with roughly 11000 spectators, and outside another umpteen thousand sitting on Henman Hill watching the gigantic video screen. The camera keeps showing us numerous "celebrities" and "stars" in the audience, most of whom arrived from far away by air, a lot of them in private jets.

So I got to thinking (always a bad sign, I know. Next time I PROMISE I'll file the necessary applications, affidavits, and money bonds with the head henchlesbian by the deadline. This time, though, I can only kick in $0.38 and a half-bottle of Thunderbird.) about how Sustainable Wimbledon will be run When I Am Emperor Of The World.

1. All persons attending, including players, must use public transport for the entire distance, with the oceanic exception noted below. (Uber is Not Public Transport)

2. Air travel to the event is Right Out. (In fact, in this world, there is no passenger air travel. At All. Anywhere. Because Carbon.) Oceans are crossed, when absolutely necessary, by large single-class passenger boats (cf. travel c. 1900).

3. The arena will hold about 1000 spectators, all of whom will be residents of Wimbledon itself (i.e. walking or cycling distance). Seats will be assigned randomly. Other persons wishing to view the event may

4. view it from the comfort of their own residences, by video supplied by a single camera and a video staff of 3 workers.

5. The grass courts will still exist, but will be maintained by volunteers from local Gardening Societies.

The problem with Sustainability Initiatives and (in the USA) Green New Deals, is that they aren't serious.

(By the way, I will be announcing my entry in the next (last) election for World Emperor next month, provided all you heathens and reprobates kick in enough Portable Valuable Property. Cheers!) (Also, when chosen, I will style myself Fred the Fourth. See how simple it all is?)

Daniel Ream

Also, when chosen, I will style myself Fred the Fourth

Frederick IV von HohenStaufen, Stupor Mundi? Seems legit.

David

State schools aren’t bad because they are underfunded… They are bad because they 1) have a difficult clientele, 2) often teach using poor progressive ideals, and 3) aren’t able to establish decent discipline.

As noted in an earlier thread,

The odds of state education ever being uniformly satisfactory, or even mostly satisfactory, seem somewhat remote. This is because the shortcomings of state education aren’t simply or chiefly a matter of funding. It’s also an issue of intake and ethos. Money won’t change the bell curves of ability and aptitude, and it won’t shift egalitarian ideology, which in my experience was one of the major problems. If, for instance, the prevailing thinking in a school is like this example here, in which children are treated as vehicles for propagating an egalitarian worldview, then the biggest problem facing those kids, especially bright kids, is the thinking itself. And if pupils aren’t being taught grammar and spelling on ideological grounds, then not teaching grammar and spelling in a slightly nicer classroom won’t make much of a difference.

I must stop quoting myself. It’s terribly improper.

Ten

You're asking the wrong question. [Fall-back to Darwinism snipped.]

I don't know you Daniel, but I know the rightist will happily appeal to Darwin and reductionism while worshiping with the west's civil religion.

It's a dodge.

It's not even remotely the wrong question - our rock-ribbed belief in Darwin didn't prevent classical Liberalism and Marx didn't legitimize the use of the force of authoritarianism.

How the right cheerfully enabled statism is indeed the right question, and in fact, it's now the only question. The right has had a hundred years to - get this - argue the relative merits of lunatic leftism but during that period has done virtually nothing to stem it.

This is because the right is codependent.

If collectivism is to a large degree inescapable, by what ethic is the state school legitimized? It's not a question about tribalism; it's a question for structuralists.

David

Seems apposite:

Sadly, Dr Swift doesn’t say whether he has any personal experience of the state education system that he thinks the rest of us should make do with in the name of “social justice.” But perhaps he could share his comforting words with some of the children left at the mercy of such schools, where, as one national survey of teaching staff puts it, “a climate of violence” and “malicious disruption” is the norm, the assaulting of staff and pupils is commonplace, with almost half of those surveyed witnessing such behaviour “on a weekly basis,” and where vandalism of personal property is “part of the routine working environment.”

Perhaps he could share his wisdom with the children being bullied daily for being clever, enquiring or polite. A fate I escaped, narrowly, thanks to a proficiency in throwing chairs, thereby deterring lunchtime assaults. Such were the thrills of the state education to which our leftist academic would have your children forcibly consigned...

Needless to say, [the egalitarian mixing of ability] doesn’t seem to work. The beneficial effect for non-academic kids is somewhere between negligible and zero. The effect on bright kids, however - those being sacrificed for the socialist ideal - can be terrible. Some clever kids... learn to give up, leaving school with grades well out of step with their intelligence, or dropping out altogether… In my case it was mostly tedious and demoralising, occasionally enlivened by a bit of physical danger. I didn’t see any evidence that my presence there was elevating any of the less able kids or inspiring the thugs to more gentlemanly conduct. If anything, it seemed to provoke the opposite. Hence the chair throwing…

A few months ago, I checked the Ofsted report for my old state school – now a ‘community arts college’ – and it made for grim reading. “Attainment in key subjects” – English, maths and science - is rated “low” and “well below average.” Indiscipline and absenteeism are major issues. And it’s worth pointing out that during my stay the school was pretty typical of others in the area. In local terms, it wasn’t regarded as a failed school; it wasn’t remarkable at all. It was how state schools in the area were. That’s what you were given. But wishing to prevent children from escaping such schools is pretty much a default attitude among our leftist intelligentsia.

I’m doing it again. Somebody stop me.

David

Heh.

Daniel Ream

How the right cheerfully enabled statism is indeed the right question

Since the "right", by definition, are those members of the Assembly who support the authority of the King over the landed aristocracy the question seems a bit redundant. L'etat, c'est moi and all that.

Perhaps the problem is that you're getting a bit lost in the verbal sophistry instead of looking at what's actually happening.

Ten

Perhaps the problem

I'm entirely unsure what disinterests me more, Daniel, that very capitulation fallacy or how far sloth will go to service it.

WTP

This page gives an average pay per state. https://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

California pays its teachers $69,000. The median wage there is $19.58, so a multiple of just under 3,500 times.
Massachusetts pays its teachers $72,000. The median wage there is $21.38, so a multiple of 3,370.
Colorado pays its teachers $50,000. The median wage there is $18.86, so a multiple of 2,650.
South Dakota pays its teachers $39,000. The median wage there is $14.32, so multiple of 2,700.

Are we speaking of underfunded or what teachers get paid? I'll address "underfunded" below but from what I found, UK teacher salaries range from £21K - £62K which in USD is approx $26K - $77K (using SWAG of 1.25 GBP/1.0 USD). The Florida starting salary, from the NEA site (suspect itself) which you link, is $35K. Now Florida's education system is something I have some experience with on both ends. If Florida is famously attempting to destroy public education, my experience is that their doing it from the inside. On top of this, Florida has plenty of qualified retirees and semi-retirees who would be happy to take many of those jobs, as was the case 40+ years ago when I was on the business end of the education system here, were it not for the exact same three issues that you describe. I know a very well qualified engineer with decades of experience in computer science and years of experience in machine learning/math who is jumping through hoops right now trying to get a job with the local school system. They keep throwing up nonsense barriers as if he were some kid off the street. I personally have volunteered with our school system on and off for 25 years and my experience is that the bureaucrats, and to some extent the teachers themselves, are the ones making teaching a hard job. If there's a concerted, intentional effort to destroy public education in Florida, it's more likely by suicide.

As for "underfunded". From what I found, the average per pupil spent in Florida is just under $9K. In the UK the number I found was around £5K, which is about $6K in USD. In fact, for the US in general, according to one site the US is one of the top 10 countries in per pupil education spending. We are not underfunded we are overfunded. The more money poured in, the more leaches show up to siphon it off.

Ray

WTP,
The problem your engineer friend has is that STEM types tend to be right wing. What the schools want is left wing female STEM teachers but they are very hard to find.

Farnsworth M Muldoon

They keep throwing up nonsense barriers as if he were some kid off the street.

That, and the absurdly low standards they have for members of their guild who have the Party Approved Degrees™ in "Education", unlike WTP's engineer, keep actual qualified experts off the field but help keep programs for "learners" (apparently they are no longer students or pupils) crappy.

From California's "Educator Certification Program" we find, among a host of other requirements, that one must take the "California Basic Educational Skills Test" which requires the following:

For each section of the CBEST, your score ranges from twenty to eighty. For the Math and Reading sections, your score is based on the number of questions you answered correctly.

   ●Both the Math and the Reading sections consist of fifty questions.
   ●The writing section consists of two essays.
   ●California and Oregon educators grade both of your essays and then convert your score to the CBEST scale from 20-80.
   ●You must earn a 41 on each section in order to pass that section; you must earn a score of 123 in order to pass the entire CBEST test.
   ●A score of as low as 37 on one or two tests is acceptable, as long as all three scores add up to 123.

Score 46.25% on math, but have an overall score of 51.25%, a BA in "education" from East Overshoe State U and you are good to go to teach commie core math, even if you can't balance your checkbook. PhD in orbital dynamics from MIT, but no courses in modern pedagogy ? Back of the line buster. What could possibly go wrong ?

WTP

STEM types tend to be right wing.
...
and the absurdly low standards they have for members of their guild who have the Party Approved Degrees™ in "Education", unlike WTP's engineer, keep actual qualified experts off the field

While there is an underlying truth here, on the day to day level the earnest answer that you will get from bureaucrats which many of them believe themselves is that in order to retain teachers they need to reserve the plum jobs, which STEM assignments seems to be, for those teachers already in the system. The problem with that, one which most bureaucrats are too dumb to see and the rest pretend doesn't exist, is that teachers desire STEM teaching jobs as it actually serves the purpose for the brighter teachers to build a resume for getting out of teaching.

Many younger people fall into teaching as something they think they know how to do because they've observed the tip of the iceberg of the profession themselves over a dozen or more years. Once they get in, realize for whatever reasons that it's not for them either financially or because of life changes, they see some STEM type teaching jobs as part of their exit strategy. I don't blame them and it's a completely understandable strategy given our society's shoehorning young people career wise to have themselves all figured out in 12 + 4 years of education and maturity. Some people just don't get to that point at 22 or 24. Some have to have real world experience first and teaching actually does, at this lower level, for those young people with a conscience but not much of a direction, provide that. But the students shouldn't suffer because of that.

Darleen

The problem with Sustainability Initiatives and (in the USA) Green New Deals, is that they aren't serious.

Oh, they are very serious ... it's just that they are not usually forthcoming with their actual objective

Saikat Chakrabarti, chief of staff for New York representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D.), said that the Green New Deal was not about the climate, but rather about tearing down the economy and building a new one, according to a report from The Washington Post.

"The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn't originally a climate thing at all," Chakrabarti said, according to the Post. "Do you guys think of it as a climate thing? Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing."

WTP

Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing

Seeing socialism in the green movement is a bit paranoid and might be a sign that she needs to at least talk to a psychiatrist. Don't ask me how I know.

Hippogryph

It's "Harrison Bergeron" Left, to make a Vonnegut reference.

Or, as Ayn Rand described the general tenor of these people, they show "the hatred of the good for being good":

"Hatred of the good for being the good means hatred of that which one regards as good by one’s own (conscious or subconscious) judgment. It means hatred of a person for possessing a value or virtue one regards as desirable. If a child wants to get good grades in school, but is unable or unwilling to achieve them and begins to hate the children who do, that is hatred of the good."

-Ayn Rand, essay, "The Age of Envy"

Hal

I must stop quoting myself. It’s terribly improper.

. . . .

I’m doing it again. Somebody stop me.

. . . I'm reminded of the "jokes" usually starting with A physicist, an engineer, and a mathematician . . . where the first two go through surreal amounts of turning handsprings and jumping through hoops, followed by the mathematician who simply cites a previously established solution and continues on . . . .

pst314

It's "Harrison Bergeron" Left, to make a Vonnegut reference...If a child wants to get good grades in school, but is unable or unwilling to achieve them and begins to hate the children who do, that is hatred of the good.

I trace much of this to the failure of the "affirmative action" programs of the sixties through eighties: Quotas in education and hiring were supposed to quickly erase racial disparities in achievement. When they did not (or when progress proved to be unacceptably slow) the left went insane*, inventing one reason after another to "explain" this failure. In order to reconcile the Marxcentric Theory with actual observed phenomena the left must continuously add more deferents and epicycles to their broken theories.

*When I write "went insane" I mean "more insane than it already was".

Squires

The effect on bright kids, however - those being sacrificed for the socialist ideal - can be terrible. Some clever kids... learn to give up, leaving school with grades well out of step with their intelligence, or dropping out altogether… In my case it was mostly tedious and demoralising, occasionally enlivened by a bit of physical danger.

My experience was twelve years that with each passing year became more and dominated by boredom and apathy, livened only PE classes and getting into trouble, and eventually graduating largely on the merit of test scores. The only time my academic grades shot up were when I was expelled, and when I made up one class in summer school.

This was despite entering high school with an already well established reputation for being a hardass, and following on the coattails of an older sister who was pretty, popular, and athletic. Those factors resulted in bullying being an issue I never had to deal with by the time high school rolled around. How brighter/more dedicated students who didn’t have that advantage made it through our high school without giving in to despair I do not know for certain. Mostly they seemed to get by via keeping to tiny groups of friends, avoiding attention, and isolating themselves from the “general population” students via advanced classes, whenever such classes were available.

Jay  Guevara

So you get paid effectively 25% more to teach in California or Massachusetts than Colorado or South Dakota, doing the same job.

You're aware that among the states Massachusetts ranks #1, whereas California is #37, far below Colorado (#10) and South Dakota (#25)? That fact alone disproves your thesis that teacher pay is the critical factor.

(link in name goes to Forbes)

Jay  Guevara

The problem your engineer friend has is that STEM types tend to be right wing. What the schools want is left wing female STEM teachers but they are very hard to find.

In California now many schools, community colleges, and even branches of the University of California require applicants to write an essay on what they've done to support LGBTEIEIO people - a very effective way of getting exactly the kind of people they want, and shooing away those repellent deplorables.

Mike
Labour Party | Socialist | Teacher | @NEUnion | @AbolishEton | Father

Father comes last.

David

How brighter/more dedicated students who didn’t have that advantage made it through our high school without giving in to despair I do not know

I don’t mean to overstate the depravities of my own experience. It was, for the most part, merely tedious and demoralising, and I managed to deflect most of the attempts at physical bullying. (The secret, I found, was to be prepared to act like a sociopath in order to deter the actual sociopaths, of which there were quite a few, and who would see the possible cost of targeting me and then decide to bully someone else, someone less likely to resist. Not ideal, I grant you.)

But I did see others fare less well. I’ve mentioned before how one new arrival – a well-spoken boy, obviously from a fairly middle-class background – was targeted immediately for jostling, theft and almost daily intimidation of one sort or another. Like being deliberately tripped down flights of stairs. And the fact that he was smart, amiable and scrupulously polite was precisely why he was picked on.

At which point, we should bear in mind that the Observer’s socialist class warrior Barbara Ellen wants us to believe that the treatment such children endure is good and righteous, “part of an instinctive protest that lies at the very core of socio-political emancipation.” The teenagers who stole the well-spoken boy’s bag and threw the contents out of a window, and did it again the next day, were “responding to oppression.” And their shoving and intimidation, which became a ritual of sorts, was apparently “an instinctive protest against inequality.” He, being “posher” than his assailants, is somehow expendable. Because… er, socialism. His misery, and the miseries of those like him, doesn’t count. Because the oiks who were stealing his stuff and getting in his face, and tripping him down flights of stairs, just because they could, they were the real victims, apparently.

Remember too that this well-spoken pupil, the one being bullied for being clever, came from exactly the kind of family that the Guardian’s Zoe Williams would like to see tormented and humiliated in the name of “social justice.”

“As for vindictive, ha! Good.” Said she.

David

Father comes last.

Mr Poole’s Twitter feed makes for revealing, if rather tedious, reading. He scoffs at the ideas of human nature and assortative mating, makes fashionable noises about “decolonising the curriculum,” and denounces people on grounds of being “male, pale and stale.” Maleness and paleness being some kind of sins, apparently. He’s also a fan of Aaron Bastani’s Fully Automated Luxury Communism and is remarkably glib about the death toll following the historical experiments of his fellow far-left ideologues.

And this is a man who wishes to control the destinies of your children.

jabrwok

Regarding teacher pay scales, the absolute numbers are fairly meaningless without some idea of the cost of living in each of the respective areas.

$50K will go a longish way in Oklahoma, Kansas, or most of Texas. Not so much in California or Massachusetts.

jabrwok

@David, the idiot_for_rents twitter account appears to have been suspended. Can you proved a synopsis?

David

Can you proved a synopsis?

I forget the wording, but something to the effect that parents may be going private to ensure their children don’t find themselves at the mercy of people like Mr Poole.

jabrwok

I forget the wording

Ah, thanks.

Chester Draws

Yes salary alone is meaningless. You'll note I divided the salary by median wage Jabrwok.

And, having just said that money isn't the main factor and so won't be a cure, thank you Jay for making sure that I don't forget what I just said.

Some people should read what people say, not what they think they say.

jabrwok

You'll note I divided the salary by median wage Jabrwok.

Yes, though I'm not sure what that has to do with cost of living. Earning 25% more per hour for the same work sounds good until one realizes the increased rent, taxes, grocery bills, utility bills, et cetera, add up to a 50% or more increase in expenses.

And, having just said that money isn't the main factor and so won't be a cure, thank you Jay for making sure that I don't forget what I just said.

Not seeing the phrase "main factor" anywhere but in the comment to which I'm currently responding, Cee. Not sure what it's supposed to "cure" either. Weren't you discussing motivations for teachers to move from one state to another? Your comment doesn't appear to take into account anything other than relative salary (in absolute dollars) and the option of rural living versus urban.

Looking back I see a *prior* comment of yours in which you are apparently describing the reasons public education is so lacking, but that's not the comment to which I was replying, and doesn't appear to have any bearing on whether a teacher (or any other worker) would be motivated to move from a position with a salary of X to one with a salary of 1.25X without taking into account the issue of how cost of living in the new location compares to that in the current location, all other factors being equal or irrelevant.

Some people should read what people say, not what they think they say.

Indeed, that's an excellent point.

Jay

Which states are those? We throw money at our school systems

This is so true. Baltimore schools spend far above average per student, but the schools are hell holes. There is a problem with the surrounding culture.

One key advantage is that private (US meaning) schools have more opportunity to get rid of the riffraff. Why shouldn't a parent want to send a child to a school without drug dealers and gang thugs

Ten

Jay, for as long as normals take the pragmatic approach - that arguing on the merits of outcomes is wise - that's how long they will lose the issue, and lose it convincingly.

It involves culture but it is not culture. It involves crime but it is not crime.

The core problem is force. You will be involved, subject. Apparently the right is just fine with this.

Sam Duncan

“So I got to thinking ... about how Sustainable Wimbledon will be run When I Am Emperor Of The World.”

Related. Abridged version:

The Green problem can be easily solved.

People register as being Green, or not Green.

Then for Greens, we add them to the no fly list.

A green logo is attached to their driving licenses. If they are caught owning, or driving a vehicle running on fossil fuels, or cars that pollute then the cars are crushed.

Given we know who they are, we get the 20 gas suppliers to cut off the gas supply.

For electricity, the same applies. They have to have a smart meter and a green tariff. No subsidies for Greens, its all on the bill.

For those that are arrested and convicted as part of extinction rebellion, its automatic.

Absolute genius. What's not to like? Give 'em little badges boasting of how they're “doing their bit”. How can the Greenists object? There's an emergency here, isn't there? Don't they want to help?

Assistant Village Idiot

Safety at school matters. Beyond that, school districts cannot show value-added. Testing at Kindergarten entry is remarkably consistent with testing at graduation. What children are taught is important for cultural and political reasons, but bright children will read cereal boxes and whatever else is in front of them and their brains will just work and educate them. Less-bright children will not. State-by-state comparisons and international comparisons are confounded by the racial differences in testing, which is where the real differences are, not the few points differences between Netherlands and Australia. All such comparisons can be mirrored nearly exactly by merely totting up the racial mix. The exceptions are few.

I didn't want to be driven to this conclusion, as I spent thousands of dollars on private Christian academies for my children growing up. I do think that what they were taught there had value, but it just barely shows in testing, if at all. Then, adopting further children impressed upon me the overwhelming dominance of genetics in the equation.

David

If anyone has trouble with comments not appearing, email me and I’ll poke the spam filter.

David

adopting further children impressed upon me the overwhelming dominance of genetics in the equation.

It seems to me that educators in general, and in the state sector in particular, tend to wildly overestimate their positive influence on the development and intelligence of pupils, especially precocious ones, as this is flattering to imagine. But regarding bright kids, the credit that can be taken by educators is generally very limited. Educators can, however, do quite a lot to frustrate bright children, thwarting the use and development of their abilities, and some are very much inclined to do so.

And the likely political leanings of those who indulge in such pleasures are not hard to guess.

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