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October 04, 2020

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Min

Because we’re not petri dishes, we are countries.”

That.

David

I can’t help feeling that the moderator’s question, aimed at Murray early on - “What does this ‘home’ that you speak about look like? Or looked like.” – has a resonance that wasn’t necessarily intended.

Horace Dunn

In response to this, on the previous thread, Sam Duncan said:

She strikes me as the sort of person I always consider a victim of the Left: her heart's in the right place with her professed belief in liberalism, broadly defined. And she's probably a decent, caring person. But without putting any great thought into her opinions (possibly without having the capability), she's been seduced by scary tales of “right-wing” bogeymen into standing against the liberal order's best interests.

A similar thought had occurred to me. It's not that Kleiner is stupid or uneducated, but she does seem utterly uncurious. It used to be believed that a degree of scepticism when dealing with political matters was a good thing. Kleiner (like so many of my lefty friends) is more inclined to be uncritical and conformist. And it's difficult to imagine a successful future for the European project if it must be entirely immune from criticism.

David

but she does seem utterly uncurious.

I get the impression she’s there to declare, not to listen or enquire, at least not in good faith. Hence the pre-emptive dismissal of Murray, about whom she seems to know very little. And again, whenever Murray speaks, Ms Kleiner spends quite a lot of the time looking distant or bored. Maybe it’s just the way her face works, and maybe she’s actually listening carefully, but her answers suggest otherwise.

Nikw211

Horace Dunn steers us to this debate between Douglas Murray, quoted above, and Flavia Kleiner

I watched this last night and came away baffled, not only by Kleiner's fatuous comments*, but by the noticeable amateurishness of the livestream's organisation.

Not only did the he chair, Sophie Derkzen, seem wholly unprepared to manage questions from the audience, but there was also this bizarre exchange near the end (from about 01:08) when Murray asks:

    Is that the end end can I ask or ...?

At this, a smug grin can be seen infecting Kleiner's face as Derkzen seems to seek her approval. Apparently not getting it, Derkzen then gives Murray the faltering reply:

    I would suggest it is the end end, yeah.

What makes this so odd is that, as Murray points out:

    If this, by the way, is to be the last round, I would just mention something very quickly. Flavia said that I hadn't prepared a speech. I do indeed have a speech here; I haven't been called upon to use it tonight. But my notes sit in front of me. [So] I don't quite know why that attack should be made.

While Kleiner again smirks in something like a triumph, Derkzen is silent on this point. She offers neither explanation nor apology, either to Murray or to the audience, as to why the livestream has only delivered on 50% of the promised debate.

It's possible that this was part of a deliberate strategy to undermine Murray, but incompetence seems the better explanation.

*The opening lines of Kleiner's presentation read like a composition written by precocious 6th grade teacher's pet:

    I want to drink vino verde in Lisbon. I want to go there by night-train wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama in a compartment full of strangers. I want to have oranges for breakfast and know exactly where they come from. And I want to know that the workers who picked those oranges got paid for it. And I want to know that their children are going to [a] school whose teachers went to university, regardless of how much money they have. I only want to see guns when they are carried around by members of the army, or tiny plastic versions of it filled with syrup. I want to remember Srebrenica and read in one of the hundreds of free news outlets that its generals were prosecuted. And I want to look at their faces while they're being walked off to prison. I want to get stuck in a traffic jam and miss an appointment because people are holding a bike manifestation [i.e. protest/demonstration]. I don't ever want to smoke weed, but I want to know that in Amsterdam I could.

What?

Seriously, what?

As Murray points out when Derkzen invites him to respond - respond to what exactly? There's nothing there.

David

I want to go there by night-train wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama in a compartment full of strangers.

That line, like several others, has an unintended irony of a rather grim sort, one that apparently escapes Ms Kleiner, given the increasingly hazardous nature of public transport, not least on account of the behaviour of the, shall we say, unassimilated.

Nikw211

Maybe it’s just the way her face works, and maybe she’s actually listening carefully, but her answers suggest otherwise.

I think to be fair, if I have one criticism of Murray in that debate it's that he didn't appear to make enough of an accommodation in his language to take account of the fact that he was dealing with people who have English as a second language, even people like Kleiner and Derkzen whose English is evidently almost impeccable (although I did smile when Derkzen welcomed the audience with the minor solecism "Good night!" right at the beginning.)

His reference to a Rubrik's cube for instance:

    There has been a presumption in recent years in Europe to assume that, historically, whenever you shake the great Rubik’s cube of humanity, it always comes out looking something like The Hague

I mean if you heard (rather than read) that in French for instance:

    Il y a eu une présomption ces dernières années en Europe pour supposer que, historiquement, chaque fois que vous secouez le grand cube de l’humanité de Rubik, il sort toujours en ressemblant à La Haye.

You'd either have to spend time working out what it meant - and then risk missing whatever else he was going to say next - or make a decision to ignore it and hope to make sense of it later.

Having said that, there was little in Kleiner's speech or behaviour to suggest that her gross misinterpretation of Murray's views was the result of a language barrier.

Nikw211

an unintended irony of a rather grim sort

That had been my first thought on hearing that, too.

David
I’m guessing Dr Kotsko doesn’t live in a neighbourhood rapidly being enlivened with Congolese and Somali borra gangs, whose social skills, and machetes, are so much in the news here.

Previously and somewhat related.

David

And of course this. Also featuring Douglas Murray.

Burnsie

*The opening lines of Kleiner's presentation read like a composition written by precocious 6th grade teacher's pet:

Sounds like the childish hippie nonsense liberals were spewing back in the 70s. Maybe she's been poking through her grandparents' journals.

I want to go there by night-train wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama in a compartment full of strangers.

Let's see her try that in Malmö.

PiperPaul

What was this thing?

.

Trevor

...people like Kleiner and Derkzen whose English is evidently almost impeccable...

Of course it should be borne in mind that English is not Kleiner's first language, but given the gaseous vacuities that emanated from her mouth I'm not completely convinced that language is her first language, either.

Rick Henwood

Mark Steyn's 2006 "America Alone" is proving fuitious.

https://www.steynstore.com/product28.html

Next "Lights Out"

https://www.steynstore.com/product65.html

Steve E

Let's see her try that in Malmö.

Exactly. Kleiner's multicultural dream seems to be formed by going out for Indonesian, Indian or Somali food while waltzing through her EU sponsored job. Indeed, for someone advocating for open borders and change, she has an extremely romantic view of a Europe that existed 50 years ago but sadly is disappearing a little more each day.

Alex DeWynter

What a weird analogy. Shaking a Rubik's cube gets you nowhere. You have to twist the things in a very careful sequence.

Jonathan

Let's find out more about this Kleiner woman:

Flavia Kleiner is the co-founder and co-president of the liberal political organisation, Operation Libero.

Operation Libero was founded by members of the Swiss foreign policy think tank, foraus (its name a play on words, which combines the first letters of its full German title – Forum Außenpolitik – with a similar pronunciation to the word ‘voraus’, which means ‘forwards’ in German) in 2014 and is engaged in promoting international connectedness, freedom, progress and the rule of law.

IoW, she's an elitest puppet for an astroturfed political 'movement' that represents the interests of the elite and not ordinary Europeans.

David

Let’s see her try that in Malmö.

As so often, it’s a mix of airheaded unrealism, practised evasion, and petty spite.

I think Ms Kleiner’s habits are summarised by her performance towards the end, when she boasts of having prepared and given a speech – a brief extract from which appears above - while implying that Murray has fallen short of these dizzying achievements and has, by implication, either lost the debate or been unfairly indulged. (This, despite Murray not being invited to use the speech he’d prepared or being given an opportunity to do so. A fact of which she is most likely aware.) Ms Kleiner then says, triumphantly, knowing time has run out, “I’m still hoping I can hear more.” While her tone and expression say something quite different.

Steve E

(This, despite Murray not being invited to use the speech he’d prepared or given an opportunity to do so.)

I had thought that odd. Flavia read her little essay and the moderator turned to Murray and asked him what he thought of what Flavia had to say. After that he was never asked to make his case. As Nikw211 pointed out, this was a poorly managed debate from start to finish.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the post mortem. I'm sure they all thought it was a triumph and that Flavia sure showed that mean Douglas Murray man.

cayleygraph2015
What a weird analogy. Shaking a Rubik's cube gets you nowhere. You have to twist the things in a very careful sequence.
That struck me too. I think it was the point he was trying to make.

Specifically, that a community where people understand eachother is the result of years of multiple individuals interacting, learning, and -- inevitably -- screwing up and getting angry at others. The various people in the community would be the faces of the Rubix's cube, the interactions would be the "twists", and the community where people understand eachother would be a solved cube. The "very careful sequence" would be the individuals interacting, often without the intended result, or the side effect of angering someone else. The "shaking" is supposed to be the many rapid changes that occur when new communities start interacting with eachother in a short time.

The point gets lost because "shaking", while capturing the rapid and uncontrolled nature of the event, is also a physical action one does to real toys similar to Rubik's cubes, that has little effect on the puzzle.

There's other shortcomings of the analogy -- Rubik's cubes are a solved problem, unlike human interaction, so there's a "very careful sequence" of twists one can approach right out of the bag; Rubik's cubes are fixed at 6 faces, whereas communities aren't fixed at a constant number of humans; etc. -- but those shortcomings are comparatively easy to understand. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better word than "shaking", but it still distracts from the apparent point of the metaphor.

Horace Dunn

it’s a mix of airheaded unrealism, practised evasion, and petty spite.

Well, exactly. If her speech had any substance at all, it comes down to the assertion that the ideal civilised Europe she would like to see (the one where you can eat oranges for breakfast and wear your pyjamas on the train) is being jeopardised by rightwingpopulists* who are attacking Europe's liberal institutions.

She is asked several times to expand on this - who are the rightwingpopulists and which institutions are they attacking? - and give maybe just one example. Yet, she seems unable or unwilling to do so. Perhaps those beligerant rightwingpopulist hoardes are not being quite as assiduous in their menacing as she fears.

* if she said rightwingpopulists once she said it fifty times.

Sam Duncan

“Kleiner's multicultural dream seems to be formed by going out for Indonesian, Indian or Somali food while waltzing through her EU sponsored job.”

I found it curious that she, as a non-EU-citizen, took it upon herself to criticise those of us who decided, after much reflection, to relinquish that dubious status. We've lived with it for decades. The Swiss, despite her best efforts, still show no sign of wanting to do so. Indeed, Brussels's strongarm tactics towards Bern are the perfect example of why it's not the fluffy “soft power” kumbaya liberal utopia she so naïvely imagines it to be.

Captain Nemo

Indeed, for someone advocating for open borders and change, she has an extremely romantic view of a Europe that existed 50 years ago but sadly is disappearing a little more each day.

This, in spades. I agree with Sam and Horace that she probably means well, unlike some of the people we encounter on this blog, even if she comes across as underinformed despite (or perhaps because of) her education. What she doesn't seem to grasp is that her advocacy for such things as open borders and "niceness" (for want of a better term) and EUROPEAN INSTITUTIONS (whatever they are - she seemed unable to define them but waffled on at great length about their necessity and importance), is the reason why that Europe of which she speaks and loves is gradually vanishing. This is nothing to do with "right-wing populists", yet another vague all-encompassing term also curiously undefined by Ms. Kleiner.

David

* if she said rightwingpopulists once she said it fifty times.

Not so much a descriptor, let alone an accurate one, as an incantation. And, like racist or white such-and-such, it’s often deployed as a way to shut down mental activity, to pre-emptively rule various ideas and possibilities as both beyond the bounds of decency and unworthy of testing. And for the most part, it’s surprisingly effective.

Joan

What she doesn't seem to grasp is that her advocacy for such things as open borders and "niceness" (for want of a better term)... is the reason why that Europe of which she speaks and loves is gradually vanishing.

That.

Steve E

...while waltzing through her EU sponsored job.

I should clarify this poorly formed, innacurate statement. To the best of my knowledge Kleiner doesn't work for the EU. She does advocate for the EU and its institutions and experiences a Europe that is more informed by Brussels, Strasbourg, and Den Hague than Malmo.

David

experiences a Europe that is more informed by Brussels, Strasbourg, and Den Hague than Malmo.

And let’s not forget Mr Simon Schama, who sneers at people who have reservations about mass immigration and the rapid transformation of their neighbourhoods – say, by Congolese machete gangs – and who does this from an exclusive, culturally homogeneous village in Westchester County.

[ Added: ]

This is a man whose comfortable home life and lucrative career presuppose an expectation of cultural common ground, a value he clearly enjoys and actively pursues, for himself, and who holds in open contempt other, poorer people who would like to retain something similar, albeit on a much humbler scale.

Belinda

Rubik's cube solution, discredited apartheid or nationalist rules: one side for every color, one color for every side.

Rubik's cube solution, assimilation rules: Just leave it shuffled, and eventually the minority colors on each side will merge into the majority.

Rubik's cube solution, integration rules: every side has a representative of every color, no side has a predominance of any one color. Diversity means that no side looks different from any other side, like Douglas Murray's example of the "dreary globalism" of every small town in Europe having a kebab+pizza joint that serves neither good kebab nor good pizza.

She was going for Thunberg cred by taking the train to Lisbon instead of flying there, only to remind people that we had cross-border trains for a century before we had the EEC, and to evoke nostalgia for the more classy and civilized times when Europeans could enact whole bedroom farces or country house murder mysteries over the course of a continental train journey.

It's refreshing to see that Douglas, the most polite man in the world, is capable of being disagreeable.

David

and to evoke nostalgia for the more classy and civilized times when Europeans could enact whole bedroom farces or country house murder mysteries over the course of a continental train journey.

Heh.

[ Slides large, unfathomable cocktail along bar. ]

Horace Dunn

And let’s not forget Mr Simon Schama

Alas, it's very difficult to forget the odious Mr Schama.

In case anyone doesn't realise quite how vile Schama is, this clip, in which Mark Steyn exposes him for the smug, callous, hypocritical wanker he is, will be instructive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHoDANH-R8

David

Alas, it’s very difficult to forget the odious Mr Schama.

Mr Schama, whose own upscale neighbourhood has genteel regulations regarding alcoholic beverages and the public use of “amusement devices,” is unlikely to be bothered by an escalation in stabbings, sexual assaults, robberies, and machete attacks. And I somehow doubt that Mr Schama’s days will be enriched by people quite literally shitting on his doorstep.

Fred the Fourth

Joan,
Yes. My own thought was, why does she think vinho Verde will continue to be made in Portugal, given her priors. By whom? For a few tourists?

Steve E

Alas, it's very difficult to forget the odious Mr Schama.

I love the word odious. Every time I see it it reminds me of Jonathan Swift and this:

“I cannot but conclude that the Bulk of your Natives, to be the most pernicious Race of little odious Vermin that Nature ever suffered to crawl upon the Surface of the Earth.”

Some things never change and it would appear Swift had the ideal description for Schama in the 18th century.

MC

she's an elitest puppet for an astroturfed political 'movement' that represents the interests of the elite and not ordinary Europeans.

Jonathan has it spot on. It would be interesting to find out who is funding this organisation.

pst314

an astroturfed political 'movement' that represents the interests of the elite and not ordinary Europeans.

That applies to a lot of "movements", I believe.

WTP

In regard to questions and how they are answered...watch this video to the end. Good presentation from one of our sheriffs, who I am sure will soon be persecuted, but at the end the reporter tries to tie this carjacking in BFE somehow to President Trump having covid and the sheriff not wearing a mask. The stupid. There's no cure.

https://www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/deputies-suspect-arrested-after-attempting-to-carjack-4-vehicles-causing-multiple-crashes-in-lake-alfred

Karen M

This is a man whose comfortable home life and lucrative career presuppose an expectation of cultural common ground, a value he clearly enjoys and actively pursues, for himself, and who holds in open contempt other, poorer people who would like to retain something similar, albeit on a much humbler scale.

That.

Squires

Wait, just you wait, for when the Saxon learns to hate.

David

That.

It helps to bear in mind that there are in-group status points to be had in endorsing, say, illegal immigrants, in any number, and regardless of their behaviour or the likelihood of assimilation. Almost anything perverse is currency, a way to elevate oneself, and almost any contortion to that end will be performed. (Hence Schama’s bizarre dismissal of migrant crime, including the gang-raping of children, linked upthread.)

However, there are few, if any, status points to be had in siding with, say, the victims of such crimes, or the wider population who don’t particularly want their neighbourhoods to be made alienating and degraded by an indiscriminate influx of such creatures.

The niche victim - the improbable, even perverse one - is much more status-conferring to the leftist than the people, largely working-class, whose neighbourhoods will be most affected. That’s how leftism works now. It’s a signature dynamic. See, for instance, this, on the ludicrous Zoe Williams. Or Clive Stafford Smith, here.

If you poke through the archives, it’s a recurring pattern.

Tim Worstall

I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon. I want to go there by night-train wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama in a compartment full of strangers.

OK. But why import tens of millions so that you can do that? Vinho Verde is on sale in Lisbon - I can confirm this, having had some there. There is a night train with sleeper compartments that goes to Lisbon. Connects, I think, with the TGV system at Hendaye. Leopard-pattern pyjamas are widely available. There are 500 million Europeans and at least some of them are going to be strangers even to those with the most exotic social life.

Why do non-Europeans need to get a look in here to make this all come true?

David

Why do non-Europeans need to get a look in here to make this all come true?

Mr Worstall. We are honoured, sir.

Fred the Fourth

Wait.
I just left two of your sites, and came back to David's for a brew and some relief from economics.
Are you .... stalking me?!
(Hey, Cathy! I've got a stalker now! I've arrived!)

Richard

It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner are essentially the aristocrats of Europe, who wish to treat the whole continent as their estate villages, around which they can trapse, visit the peasants (who know their bettets) and demand unthinking gratitude from the plebs. Hence the snarking tone and veiled anger at being defied. It's also interesting that, like so many of her kind, she's setting up the dialogue as between her values and "right-wing populism" (code for Nazism).

David

It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner are essentially the aristocrats of Europe,

There is, I think, a hint of imperiousness. And the stated political goals of this grown woman include wearing pyjamas on a train full of cosmopolitan and ethnically exotic strangers, and having her journeys and appointments sabotaged by protestors. Protestors who think like her, I assume.

Trevor

I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon. I want to go there by night-train wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama in a compartment full of strangers.

Jumping Jehoshaphat. And I thought I was a lazy unambitious underachiever.

Mags

and having her journeys and appointments sabotaged by protestors. Protestors who think like her, I assume.

Bet she wouldn't be happy if Brexiteers were blocking the traffic.

David

Bet she wouldn’t be happy if Brexiteers were blocking the traffic.

No, and again, the assumption of who would be doing the disruption is rather telling. Recreational law-breaking and the gratuitous aggravation of thousands of random people being such jolly larks when fellow lefties do it.

John

Ms Kleiner undoubtedly sees herself as Europe’s saviour rather than its aristocracy. You don’t have to look too hard to find her role model........

https://youtu.be/X1Fq6gtbx4Q

Not surprisingly comments have been disabled.

Hal

. . . wearing a leopard-pattern . . .

I'm reminded by an old picture of me that I once had a leopord print shirt that I was very fond of.

The following year I entered the second grade.

---And since then, any time I've particularly noticed someone going by in something very pointedly leopard print, I keep remembering the timing . . .

Steve E

...she's setting up the dialogue as between her values and "right-wing populism"...

And aren't her "values" really left-wing populism? She supports the twin left-wing fetishes of climate change remediation and open borders.

Hal

It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner are essentially the aristocrats of Europe, who wish to treat the whole continent as their estate villages, around which they can trapse, visit the peasants (who know their bettets) and demand unthinking gratitude from the plebs.

Genuine aristocrats---or other senior administrators---on estates and in estate villages definitely know their place.

---Such actual aristocrats/administrators remain aware that they are the source of the cash to keep quite sufficiently paying the highly appreciated and valued and welcomed craftsmen of various sorts who keep doing the work that keeps the estate going . . . .

---Such being rather reminiscent of those who claim that they should pay little or no taxes, but who have no skills or interest in providing local and national defense, keeping the roads in good condition, ensuring quality of food, keeping the sewers going, etc. An aristocrat---or anyone conservative---is quite happy to pay enough taxes, 'cause of noting the alternative . . .

It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner . . . is more frantically lowest middle class--- quite being typical hipter/preppy/yuppy/Etc ---and wants to think that she's being seen as what she might refer to as "posh" . . . and isn't quite certain how any reality of that actually comes to be.

Baceseras

Trying not to think of a leopard-skin pill-box hat.

Baceseras

---Such actual aristocrats/administrators remain aware that they are the source of the cash to keep quite sufficiently paying the highly appreciated and valued and welcomed craftsmen of various sorts who keep doing the work that keeps the estate going 

It is the duty of the wealthy man
To provide employment for the artisan.

(couplet by Chesterton, I think, or Belloc or somebody)

Steve E

Trying not to think of a leopard-skin pill-box hat.

Well you
must tell me baby
how your head feels
under somethin' like that...
Under your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat

Joe Ego

It occurs to me that the likes of Ms Kleiner . . . is more frantically lowest middle class--- quite being typical hipter/preppy/yuppy/Etc ---and wants to think that she's being seen as what she might refer to as "posh" . . . and isn't quite certain how any reality of that actually comes to be.

Definitely not aristocrat. She is like the random functionary or courtesan from centuries past who knew just the right person to get in on the gig. She is the modern elites' version of a "social media influencer". Her job is to say the right things, portray the right attitudes, and demean those who disagree (because her patrons cannot be seen to sink so low). She is paid well because she is part of the marketing budget and the elites have decided they'd rather pay less for lower class salaries and silly externalities like rape gangs can be ignored.

As Sam noted, she is not from the EU. Highlighting the global elitism at play, she comes from Switzerland to make appearances in the UK and EU because the elites (and their underlings) are in agreement in all those places. She gains clout making these appearances, which her patrons hope to convert into political influence in Switzerland.

I think it is entirely possible that Derkzen and Kleiner were not at all prepared for Murray to be so skilled. Derkzen probably intended to make this some kind of 2-minute hate on the rightwingpopulist and any collusion with Kleiner is less due to preparedness than to similar programming - because they are both good, right-thinking people. Why would any of us expect Derkzen to host anything that could make us second guess Kleiner, Merkel, the EU, or the various bureaucracies and NGOs in our own backyards who are shipping in thousands of foreigners every day?

It is too easy to put the lie to her "I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon" speech. If you want to see new people and new things then GO there. Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara doesn't help 99% of people.

exdemocrat

Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara

When I hear this I immediately wonder if they also plan to turn Karachi into Luton, Mogadishu into Malmo, and Guadalajara into Los Angeles? In which case, what does that achieve? (And if not, why not?)

ComputerLabRat

Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara doesn't help 99% of people.

Nor would the people who want to turn these cities into those shitholes like living in any of those exotic, vibrant (but not very diverse) places. If they actually had to live with the common folk in Karachi, Mogadishu, and Guadalajara, without any of their normal monetary or physical protections they'd be singing a different tune, methinks. So it's not surprising that it's usually the people who live separated and above the roiling masses that want this sort of thing in the first place - people like the odious Schama person.

Paul Carlton

wearing a leopard-pattern pyjama

I once saw a see-through woman's plastic raincoat on sale in Lincoln and that had a leopard skin pattern on it.

I only mention it in case it was raining on the way to the station.

David

I once saw a see-through woman’s plastic raincoat on sale in Lincoln

[ Opens file named ‘Paul Carlton’. Types suspected deviant. ]

Sam Duncan

“It is too easy to put the lie to her "I want to drink Vinho Verde in Lisbon" speech. If you want to see new people and new things then GO there. Turning Luton into Karachi, Malmo into Mogadishu, and Los Angeles into Guadalajara doesn't help 99% of people.”

And it greatly increases the chance of being forbidden from travelling there in leopard-pattern pyjamas to drink vinho verde.

This, I think, is the crux of her idiocy. You can't maintain a liberal society if you fill it with vast numbers of people who hold a deeply-ingrained cultural enmity towards it. That was always the late Pim Fortuyn's rejoinder to his critics: he was the one trying to defend liberalism, while they were putting it under threat by throwing open the doors to every Tom, Dick, and Mohammed.

Horace Dunn

Why do non-Europeans need to get a look in here to make this all come true?

Tim Worstall hits the nail on the head here. Pretty much everything that Kleiner says is, precisely, question-begging.

Her argument is: This debate is "who get Europe". People like me should get Europe. Why? Because Europe should be about drinking Vinho Verde and wearing pyjamas on the train. And people like me are in favour of that. So Europe should belong to me. Anyone who disagrees is a rightwingpopulist. So you should want Europe to belong to me rather than rightwingpopulists like Douglas Murray.

Ok, so I'm exaggerating. But only a little. A very little.

Joe Ego

Ok, so I'm exaggerating. But only a little. A very little.

The only part you're missing is when Murray is asked "well, whaddya think of that, you close-minded rightwingpopulist biggot?" And... scene.

I think I am also probably exaggerating because I haven't watched the video yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I will rectify that now.

Steve E

Her argument is:...Anyone who disagrees is a rightwingpopulist.

She's also disengenuous. She lives in the least open bordered country in Europe; one that isn't a member of the EU, maintaining it's own currency, fiscal, monetary, and trade policy. So she's been sheltered by the decision making of the rightwingpopulists. She is loathe to admit that it's precisely the policies at play in the EU and which she is advocating for in her own country that are responsible for her perceived inability to ride the train in her leopard-skin pjs.

WTP

I'm sorry. All this talk of Vinho Verde in Lisbon has me terribly confused. I recently pick up a bottle in a wine store in Hiawassee, GA (near The Shoppes On Tater Ridge..I kid you not). Was that wrong?

pst314

Was that wrong?

Yes, deeply wrong. Did you also buy a bottle of 19 Crimes wine? If so then no forgiveness is possible and a Sensitivity Training Consultant will sentence you to transportation.

Craig Mc

Exactly. Kleiner's multicultural dream seems to be formed by going out for Indonesian, Indian or Somali food while waltzing through her EU sponsored job.

I think she's confusing Europe with The Epcot Theme Park.

Stuart

She strikes me as the sort of person I always consider a victim of the Left: her heart's in the right place with her professed belief in liberalism, broadly defined. And she's probably a decent, caring person.

I imagine that is how she would like to look, but I think her speech gets to the heart of this type of thinking; namely that she feels she should be able to go wherever she fancies, whenever she likes. A firm belief that the freedoms she enjoys in her home country should be extended to her globally. It's nothing more than self-interested posturing.

Thankfully a refugee crisis has come along to both disguise such an entitlement mentality, and provide an opportunity to champion open borders as the morally correct thing to do. A kind of metaphorical mutual back-scratching. Of course, in this exchange, it is people like Kleiner whose back is scratched first. Thankfully the migrating masses won't be anywhere near where they live, so true reciprocation will, sadly, not be forthcoming.

Lady Cutekitten

I want to be able to dance again. I want the weeds in the front yard to stop coming back every couple of days. I want to be able to hike again, wearing leopard-print sneakers with camo pants. I want David to fisk Scary Mommy some more. (Fisk, damn it; I said FISK!). I want the neighborhood skunk to find another neighborhood. I want the interest rate lowered on my house payment. I want a cure for autism discovered. I want Covid and its accompanying hysteria to go away. I want great Cthulhu to arouse from his dreamless sleep, so I can stop voting for the LESSER evil.

So which screed do you like better, mine or hers?

Stuart

I want great Cthulhu to arouse from his dreamless sleep, so I can stop voting for the LESSER evil.

*Chuckles

David

I want David to fisk Scary Mommy some more.

[ Cough. ]

fnord

when I was 6 I wanted a pony.

I grew up.

Sonny Lematina

http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/titanic.html

But Miss Pankhurst's remark although imbecile, is informing. Now I see the abject and idolatrous way in which she uses the word "rule," I begin to understand the abject and idolatrous way in which she uses the word "vote." She cannot see that wills and not words control events. If ever she is in a fire or shipwreck with men below a certain standard of European morals, she will soon find out that the existence of a rule depends on whether people can be induced to obey it. And if she ever has a vote in the very low state of European politics, she will very soon find out that its importance depends on whether you can induce the man you vote for to obey his mandate or any of his promises. It is vain to rule if your subjects can and do disobey you. It is vain to vote if your delegates can and do disobey you.
Daniel Ream

one of Forbes magazine’s “30 under 30,”

Immediately disqualifies her from being taken seriously.

The days of 18-year-old brigade majors putting down a serious rebellion or 20-year-old undergraduates creating group theory are long behind us. Anyone under 30 is an adolescent and should be treated as such.

Sam

fnord has the essence of it.

When will the adults stop allowing such blatant tantrums from the children? I pray it happens before the mass grave phase, but that seems less likely by the month.

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